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Opinions On Nagamaki


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#1 nickm

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:48 PM

So I am wondering about this blade.. Found it at auction locally and curious about it.. Love the style of blade And I'm looking for reasons not to buy it..
Of course it is in bad shape and will need Polish and shirasaya but wondering about it.. Might it have been retempered? It has a strange hamon in that it is yaki otoshi on on side and the hamon goes into the nakago on the other. From what I can see of it it looks like it will be a gorgeous blade once polished but of course wondering if it is not worth putting the money into to have it done. I will press for more pictures to add but wondering any opinions you that are more knowledgeable may have about it.. I did make a post prior to getting pictures about the Hamon but thought I would start a new one now that I have pictures to ask general opinion

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#2 nickm

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:50 PM

As always I very much appreciate the priceless information that you guys have to offer on this subject. As I generally do when you guys save me some money or point me in the right direction I will be making a donation to the site to help keep it able to do what it does
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#3 nickm

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:58 PM

To further explain the Hamon or maybe little better the yakidashi goes into the nakago on one side and is basically at the start of the habaki on the other side
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#4 nickm

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:11 PM

Also the lines that are showing up on the shinogi ji were not visible to the naked eye but showed up in the pictures they sent. I'm thinking it has something to do with the lighting in the ceiling of where they took the pictures?
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#5 paulb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:48 PM

Nick

I don't think anyone can tell you much from the images you have supplied. First and foremost you need to post a picture of the whole blade with some dimensions. Personally I cannot see any detail of hada or hamon either so all there is to go on are some partial images.

Sorry but to be of any help I think people need to see a lot more



#6 nickm

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:49 PM

Understood and I appreciate the reply. I am attempting to get additional pictures but it is kind of like pulling teeth so here's hoping I can get some up soon
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#7 nickm

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 04:21 AM

finally hopefully better pics..

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#8 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 04:41 AM

The photos are still poor but the blade looks well made and in decent condition. If the price is low I would go for it.


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#9 nickm

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 04:47 AM

Sorry about the pics.. Thats the best I could get sent to me. Good ole gamblin..
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#10 Greg F

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

Hi Nick the blade pics are too blury but its also too reflective. If you try it in a dark room with a torch and play around with different angles and distances you will be surprised how much detail you get and it can be quit enjoyable to see blades in this way. Good luck.

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#11 Surfson

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 03:31 PM

Hi Nick.  i like the shape, though I am a sucker for an okissaki blade.

 

The nakago makes it look late to me, and I doubt that it is shortened from a longer and older blade.  If the nakago is original, and the blade has not been shortened, then it may be shinshinto.  

 

The striation lines in the shinogi ji look to me like somebody has put it on a buffing wheel.  This would also explain why it is so shiny in the photos.  That is not intrinsically a horrible thing as long as there wasn't heat in the process causing loss of the yakiba/hamon in certain places and as long as the wheel wasn't left too long on the shinogi line and ground it to roundness or diminished its height greatly.  In either of those cases, the polisher will have to reshape the blade and remove meat, both things to be avoided if possible.  It looks in some photos like the hamon is dark and the ji is light.  This is another common sign that somebody has put a blade on a polishing wheel.  Again, as long as it wasn't destructive, a polisher can bring such a blade back. When a buffing wheel is used, the hada can become indistinct, so the blade might even appear to be mujihada, even if you got good photos, making it hard to judge whether it conforms to a koto school in case you decide that it might be koto.

 

Bottom line, I doubt that it is a koto blade based on the nakago (although it could be one that was cut down in the last century or so).    I wouldn't pay too much for it if you are uncertain about its age, since a mumei shinshinto blade in this condition is not worth a lot, and is almost certainly not worthy of the cost of restoration.  

 

Just my two bits based on the small amount of info from these photos.   Let us know how it works out.


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#12 Rayhan

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 01:08 AM

Looks like shinshinto sword but pics are too blury.can faintly see either a gunome or choji hamon.

#13 nickm

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 01:49 AM

Well for better or worse its mine now....

Thanks for the info Robert. Would it be possible that the lines on the shinogi hi (perhaps from wheel) would not be visible in person? I was able to see it tuesday and did not see them then but of course they are in some pics..

Also i think (though a novice) that it is suriage but of course wont know till I post some pics in hand and you guys tell me..

Either way planning to run to pick it up on Monday or Tuesday and will get some good pictures up for hopefully some opinions as to hopefully it being worth the money to Polish
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#14 nickm

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 03:02 AM

The reason I think/hope its suriage is the hamon definitely goes into the nakago on one side.. Cant see it on the other side.. Is it possible that the yakadashi is somewhere in the nakago while being ubu?
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#15 nickm

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 03:58 AM

pic of what I think is hamon extending into nakago. Of course still from the auction house

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#16 Surfson

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 03:44 PM

The tang looks older in that pic Nick.  (ha, picnic!).  You asked about the two sides earlier and I replied - sometimes they heat a blade at the machi when they file it for machiokuri and it can diminish the hamon.  I look forward to some better photos when you get it in hand.  Best of luck.  


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#17 NihontoCollector

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 08:59 PM

Shinshibto Bungo... sold for too much like all the blades did


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#18 NihontoCollector

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:02 PM

Did you buy it? It is not a nagamaki in my oppinion ... a Katana with o kissaki


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#19 NihontoCollector

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:03 PM

Do not polish


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#20 chogi101

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:09 PM

Hi Nick this is my first post ever 

I did see pics with a little more detail I must say you got the best long sword of the lot that were offered

even with the damage. I hope the kissaki does not break off when you try to straighten it. With that said my thoughts ran to it being a tajima blade with saka sori and that one hole was much older than the top one as that one is drilled with sharp edges and the Nakago being machi okuri by quite a bit the aranie  is a nice addition and the crest of the gonome smattered with it . I would love to hear how it  works out for you as I had  withdrawn  my phone bid on this item as I did not need another restoration project right now!   Good luck

sante 



#21 NihontoCollector

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:11 PM

Sorry.... I just read yozr message. ... hast senden to Benson for his oppinion.... you have some Minor ware in the shinogi ... no problem.... however mumei shindhibti is no goiod to get polushed in the very most cases. .. the nsoe shizu was interesting


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#22 NihontoCollector

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:14 PM

I very much doubt this to be a Taima blade for nultiple reasobs... but i Would live to be wrong and cobgeatukate you


Luis


#23 nickm

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 10:57 PM

Yes I did buy it. Figure it went for little too much but everything always does so begs the question did it go for too much or is that the price of things now but either way I am very excited to have it. Going to send it to Bob Benson to hopefully get restored, only concern being the little bend at the end. As long as he can get restored I will be a happy fellow as I don't really have any resale intentione just think it will look awesome and look forward to having it in the house for some time to come. Of course I would be happier if it was old but I'm fine if it is not. As always I appreciate everyone's opinions and will be picking it up tomorrow afternoon so should be able to get some more detailed pictures up there either way
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#24 nickm

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 03:18 AM

Did you buy it? It is not a nagamaki in my oppinion ... a Katana with o kissaki


By no means do I profess to be anything more than a novice but if it is a katana it is the thickest and heaviest katana I have ever seen. I guess that would make it fun in that respect anyway if so
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#25 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 04:02 AM

Nick, looking closely at the photos, the hamon doesn't really change shape going into the boshi, which indicates a Koto blade to me. I can't tell if the ana are chiseled or drilled, but I really don't think this is Shinshinto. What is the nagasa?


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#26 nickm

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 04:16 AM

Hey ken. The nagasa is 67 cm. I think the bottom ana was chisled and the top one drilled. With a big emphasis on think
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#27 NihontoCollector

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 12:13 PM

By no means do I profess to be anything more than a novice but if it is a katana it is the thickest and heaviest katana I have ever seen. I guess that would make it fun in that respect anyway if so



If so think and heavy does this add to beeing probably Koto?

Luis


#28 Valric

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 12:32 PM

There is really not much that can be said given the photos available.

 

As far as I know hamon-boshi continuity is a rule of thumb for Shinto vs Koto. In Shinshinto we may see hamon-boshi continuity. Chisel/drilled holes don't mean much. If its shinshinto ubu mumei, then you need to add a chiseled hole to give it a koto vibe.

 

I don't see any big discriminating evidence here in either direction. State of the Nakago, thickness and shape cues me towards Shinshinto, as well. I'm pretty confident that it's not a Nagatina Naoshi reshaped with a new yokote. I also think it's not ubu, because of the way the hamon flows off the hamachi. However this could just be a hadori job, I can't tell with the images. 

 

All together, it looks like a Nambokucho shinshinto revival utsushi with O-kissaki, dressed up as Koto with signature erased and suriage, nakago stuck in the ground to give it some old feel and and added mekugi-ana.

 

Could be wrong. Better pictures are needed if we are to move beyond conjectures.  


Chris H. 


#29 Greg F

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 01:18 PM

I think Chris could be right about this being utsushi as its unlikely to be koto if its still that thick isnt it most likely not koto as usually blades from that long ago have had many polishes and would have lost thickness? Just a thought.

Greg

#30 nickm

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 07:18 PM

more pictures coming once I can figure out how to resize them

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