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Origami Needed?


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Gentlemen,

MATSU-KAZE in Japan is offering papers (without the items) on E-Bay:

 





Amazing or frightening?

Kind regards,

Jean C..

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eBay doesn't care as long as they get their percentage of the sale, and are not in violation of any law. The use for fraud of those obsolete, green papers is limited anyhow. Even here in the f/s section of the NMB were "old" papers without items sold not that long ago ...  :doh:

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Origami can be found offered for sale in Japan basically at all times at about 10$ a piece. Greens, TH, H. Discarded when better papers are obtained.

Late Honamis at about 100$ a piece. Late Myochin armor origami about 200$ a piece.

Early Honami can easily be in 500-2000 category.

Nothing new here.

 

Kirill R.

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Origami can be found offered for sale in Japan basically at all times at about 10$ a piece. Greens, TH, H. Discarded when better papers are obtained.

 

I haven't seen a single hozon or tokubetsu hozon paper for sale here - they have to be handed in when applying for higher papers. Unless, of course, a sword is submitted multiple times for the same level without disclosing the previous papers, and the shinsa team doesn't recognize it. But it would be pretty idiotic to invest a couple of hundred $ in order to make $ 10 from selling the papers ... :dunno:

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Like Hamish, I would buy them just out of interest. Maybe to frame and put in a man cave.
Part of the decor, and better than just putting pictures of items on the walls. I don't think the only use for these is fraud.
I'll take any that members want to discard, and can assure you they won't be used for nefarious purposes.

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This Origami system is total waste and not worth anything in my opinion. To many faults in it. Old papers, green papers, orange papers. What comes next - blue papers? A lot of money and a "Riesen Bohei" for what? And yes I'm a paying NBTHK member.  Hamfish buy it. 

 

There should be a universal Database in which every blade and Tosogu is registered and checked, with provenance.

 

Maybe this would help.

And it should cost nothing to check authenticity.

Every Member of the NBTHK pays 250 EUR or xy in other currencys a year. This should be work alone for the service.

 

But, the system now is total wrong.

 

Btw the nbthk doesn't check it to give new member cards in 2018 for germany. The year is nearly over. The next letter will come for a new member paying. For what? I think you can read that I'm really angry.

 

This board is more help than a membership. Thanks all members for the free education and learning, here is the true worth.

 

 

Sorry if i was to rough in my words. Sometimes i get to angry.

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Sometimes a humble shimada just ages before your very eyes - and papers as Akihiro. I don't have a good proposal what to do with the "old" papers this being they case, I think most just toss them but a dealer accumulating a hundred of those in a lifetime could try to profit by selling them.

 

For NBTHK "clubs" I thought the sole purpose of having them was promoting nihonto business-side . Sure there is probably some official statute about education, research and values involved, but then "John James, a polisher" is one thing, "John James, board of advisory of NBTHK northern Germany and founding member of NBTHK Bavaria, an honorary judge for all Germany polishing competition of 2018, traditional Master Polisher" is totally different.

One does not born a Sensei, but one surely can arrange to be one.

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There should be a universal Database in which every blade and Tosogu is registered and checked, with provenance.

Not a bloody chance, Chris!! Don't you realize that this would give criminals (or whatever is PC to call them these days) a verified list of who owns what...& where?

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Not a bloody chance, Chris!! Don't you realize that this would give criminals (or whatever is PC to call them these days) a verified list of who owns what...& where?

There is absolutely a way to do this safely that would be a huge benefit to the nihonto world, omitting private/sensitive information. However, it’s a moot point. The NBTHK is many things, but innovative is not one of them.

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@Chris I've heard through the grapevine that you can ask NBTHK to check in a paper from their archives. I don't think it will cost anything. Haven't felt the need to ever pursue that myself so I cannot say how well it actually works. Blue papers were around from 1973 to 1982. I don't really stress about the old papers as I wasn't even alive back when they were a thing and the system change happened. I feel bit strange how unforgiving people still seem to be about mistakes that happened over 30 years ago. I feel major companies or even countries can make huge mistakes that are soon forgotten by most (and they might not even make anything to handle their errors). I felt that NBTHK even handled the situation back then extremely well by offering free reattribution for swords with old papers. Of course all I've read and heard are just old tales and I do not know exactly what happened.

 

And a tongue in cheek comment could be that swords that really matter by NBTHK standards and are worth collecting are documented in Nado Zufus.

 

I think the new data information laws in Europe (maybe in world too?) made member information gathering more difficult in Europe. As a regular guy I do not understand all that need for secrecy etc. maybe it's because I'm a nobody I don't feel stressed about companies or groups having my name, email, address etc. I remember NBTHK-EB posting about there being few problems for people missing their cards etc.

 

I am at least super happy that NBTHK has European branch and various sub-groups around Europe. The chances to see Japanese swords in Finland are close to none and I do not have finances to make multiple trips to Japan yearly. The presence of the organization in Europe makes it possible to get a chance to view quality items with like minded folks. I haven't had too much contact with the Japanese main branch but here in Europe I really do not see business at all. In my mind it is the opposite, members are bringing in items to meetings, giving lectures, educating new folks all free of charge.

 

I do agree on the fact the NBTHK is bit like a dinosaur in many ways. I've understood that it might be bit common in old organizations in Japan and change is a slow thing. Hopefully future years might bring some more innovative winds.

 

Of course Nihontomessageboard is an amazing place. This is great platform with lots of good guys as members and you'll get lots of information and peers in here all free of charge too. Many members here are also members of various sword groups and some are involved in none. I think this is among the best places on the Internet.

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Sometimes a humble shimada just ages before your very eyes - and papers as Akihiro. I don't have a good proposal what to do with the "old" papers this being they case, I think most just toss them but a dealer accumulating a hundred of those in a lifetime could try to profit by selling them.

 

For NBTHK "clubs" I thought the sole purpose of having them was promoting nihonto business-side . Sure there is probably some official statute about education, research and values involved, but then "John James, a polisher" is one thing, "John James, board of advisory of NBTHK northern Germany and founding member of NBTHK Bavaria, an honorary judge for all Germany polishing competition of 2018, traditional Master Polisher" is totally different.

One does not born a Sensei, but one surely can arrange to be one.

 

I never heard about John James or a NBTHK Bavaria? And i never heard about a German polishing competition in 2018. I only get informations from the NBTHK Germany with CO Eckehard Kremers and XO Ruslan Tarasenko.

 

The NBTHK Meetings are allways far away from Bavaria. There is no or less communications between subgroubs. Some members held meetings in Munich. But thats all not this what i expect from a organisation like the NBTHK. Btw. the NBTHK Germany had around 100 paying members when i read correct between the lines. So the importance for a membership brings very less return. Thats my experience. They must really increase the information level and the benefit for the members. Maybe and this is my personal thought, Members think they are in a exclusive club or something like that. That is nonsense. Our task should be education and benefit for collection and preserving Japanese swords. 

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Not a bloody chance, Chris!! Don't you realize that this would give criminals (or whatever is PC to call them these days) a verified list of who owns what...& where?

 

Ken did you think criminals look in the NMB and fish informations about Sword owners? There are much more people who knows what you have and where to find it. The most informations are given by the collectors himself. You buy and you sell, you speak about your hobby to friends and collegues. Maybe you have an insurance? You go to meetings and spoke to other collectors. In other ways the best thing to protect your collection and yourself is to show what you have and make a good documentation. No one will be so stupid to steal your collection and sell it when everyone knows that is yours. My thinking is, if you have a problem tell it everyone and your problem is gone (kidding). And the next thing is, that mostly of the stuff what is traded is traded between a very connected community. Very less new collectors came in this hobby these days.

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I never heard about John James or a NBTHK Bavaria? And i never heard about a German polishing competition in 2018. I only get informations from the NBTHK Germany with CO Eckehard Kremers and XO Ruslan Tarasenko.

 

The NBTHK Meetings are allways far away from Bavaria. There is no or less communications between subgroubs. Some members held meetings in Munich. But thats all not this what i expect from a organisation like the NBTHK. Btw. the NBTHK Germany had around 100 paying members when i read correct between the lines. So the importance for a membership brings very less return. Thats my experience. They must really increase the information level and the benefit for the members. Maybe and this is my personal thought, Members think they are in a exclusive club or something like that. That is nonsense. Our task should be education and benefit for collection and preserving Japanese swords.

That made my day and I laughed heartily. There is no John James, master polisher in Bavaria. Rivkin was speaking figuratively.

Eckhard and others are doing a wonderful job. Pity the meetings are mostly in Germany but for the German guys between the Berlin museum and the Munich / Bonn sessions they get really spoilt.

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They do a good job, really? Did you have recieved your 2018 membercard? When was the last NBTHK meeting in Munich? You get only some short notice about NBTHK meetings in Bonn. The report is mostly 2 or 3 sentences (with the theme and that it was nice to be there). And Berlin, did you mean the meeting in the Samurai Museum? And whats happned, nothing.

 

What did you mean with wonderfull job? Look at the other branches worldwide they do much more. 

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They do a good job, really? Did you have recieved your 2018 membercard? When was the last NBTHK meeting in Munich? You get only some short notice about NBTHK meetings in Bonn. The report is mostly 2 or 3 sentences (with the theme and that it was nice to be there). And Berlin, did you mean the meeting in the Samurai Museum? And whats happned, nothing.

 

What did you mean with wonderfull job? Look at the other branches worldwide they do much more.

They do indeed. The fact that you do not have membership cards is not the fault of NBTHKEB but if the main organisation in Tokyo. Eckhard has been sending them emails and been there many times in person to complain. The reality is that we, the overseas members, are a hassle for the Japanese organisation - difficult to manage etc.

The organised meetings in Germany have top quality study material with several Juyo - you just need to get off the chair and away from the computer and go there in person to study.

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  • 1 month later...

Will it not be exceedingly simple to copy and/or fake these and print them by the wheelbarrow when not attached to their designated items? And sell them with wallhanger swords on ebay.. someone out there probably doing it right now.

 

Then again some people do need protection from themselves sometimes.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure and all that.

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Very personal opinion - the fear was always regarding specifically mumei o-suriage blades with non-distinct squarish nakago being married to a very poor condition blade, with sort of similar nakago, which could have been slightly reshaped - and with papers to say Yamato Shizu or some early Yamashiro it is then suddenly worth much more.

Not something that can be done easily or in large quantities. Faking papers "from zero" is even more difficult, with their watermarks, special paper, distinctive calligraphy, hidden database but against which the paper's content can be verififed by phone call and origami number... There used to be examples of fake Juyo papers posted, but I guess you don't really see them very often. And again, how would you inject those into circulation - any ebay dealer with those would be outed in couple of weeks.

It would have been much easier technically to fake Tanobe-sensei's sayagaki - and you don't really see such examples either. 

Very personal opinion what is much easier to fake are some Jubi papers, its a one-off operation, and not all Jubi were well catalogued.

 

What you do see quite often at auctions is an item selling once, and then in couple of years it is on sale - with additional old origami from Edo period appraisers mentioning some big daimyo names.

 

Kirill R.

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As Guido says, not much use for fraud for green papers, and especially so when applied to iron tsuba. 

 

The real danger is claiming juyo papers are lost to get them re-issued, then passing off the old juyo papers with a nicely matched up blade with normal suriage shape nakago for some ambiguously tiered makers like mainline Soshu and easily justifies the costs of the re-issuance. Real papers, fake blade matching. 

 

Naoe Shizu to Shizu

Tametsugu to Norishige

Kanenaga to Chogi

 

Basically conservative attributions that say 'not quite tier 1, so we will pick the closest student' with common size (~70cm) and non-descript suriage nakago can be flipped upward. This is what you want to worry about, the big heist. You don't want to try Masamune or Go because that stuff is going to be scrutinized big time and less likely to succeed. But stuff like the makers above have a decent amount of blades and if you get Juyo guarantee and you have some knowledge, and it looks good, and you call NBHTK tells you the paper is legit, well... 

 

Corollary of this is that you're better off with recognizable nakago and big size swords if you want to rule out the big heist. Now, I don't know how widespread this is, and it most likely is very, very rare. But when there is the possibility to make money in fraud then usually there is fraud. I wonder if the NBTHK keeps a record of lost/re-issued papered, because that would be a way to rule it out.

 

I read somewhere, I think on Sesko's blog, that there is a fake Kyomaro floating around with 'real papers' which was made as an utsushi of the real thing and sold off to unsuspecting buyers in the US.  

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