Juyo 2018

[TheGermanBastard]

Darcy sorry, while I admire your knowledge and views in general I can not agree to the core message of your post. It is false. It is subjective.

 

Claiming there is no bias in art is nothing but a biased view. There always has been and always will be bias in art. Art is indeed just a stereotype of biased evaluation.

 

Art is not dichotomical true / false science. Hence I see your post as the expression of a biased oppinion. Your reality where everboy does have his own reality.

 

A long time ago a Germnan gentleman invited an artist to Germany to help promote his work. The exhibition was a tital failure. The artist did not sell a single work. The friend whio had invited him bought seberal of his works rather out of pitty for him. His name was Gunther Sachs and the arists name was Andy Warhol. Since then the bias towards this artist has changed somewhat.

 

One day will well likely see Gassan Sadakazu go Juyo. Will his swords just become better like vine? No. The bias will change. The realiyt of the NBTHK Shinsa will change. The sword will remain the same.

 

So yes, there is a set of subjective rules which will make it pretty much prdictable if a sword will pass NBTHK Juyo shinsa. Pretty much as with some swords results may differ on each season.

 

Dary has done an excellent job on analysing the criteria of Juyo passing. So a sword that has passed this process can be without claimed to be judged Juyo by the NBTHK.

 

Whtere it is art or even great art that is up to you. My wive does have a completly different view on swords as art than I do ...

 

But hey, it is a free world so everybody is allowed to do what they like best, enjoy what they like best and spend their money on what they like best.

[eternal_newbie]

 

Claiming there is no bias in art is nothing but a biased view. There always has been and always will be bias in art. Art is indeed just a stereotype of biased evaluation.

 

 

I think the relevant part here is this sentence in Darcy's post:

 

In all of that I can just continue to distill down to those who have only 15 minutes to listen that they need to understand that Juyo means Important and Tokubetsu Juyo means Extraordinarily Important. If you can just sit and meditate on those two ideas for a week and then look at something in your hands and say, "Is this important?" or ... is it just a nice blade?

 

Deciding if something is nice, or even very very nice, is obviously subjective. Deciding if something is important, within the context of a well-established field with not just prevailing trends but also historical records and an agreed-upon baseline for what is considered significant, is far less subjective. You don't need to be a fan of ko-Bizen to know that a signed, dated, ubu ko-Bizen tachi would be extroardinarily important to the field as a whole. You might think Masamune is a gaudy hack and "real" art is calm and austere like a good ko-Mihara suguha, but if you find a Masamune blade signed and with an inscription detailing who it was for and the occasion it commemorated, you better believe it's important to the Nihonto world and its institutions.

 

If Gassan Sadakazu goes Juyo (and that's not a guarantee!), it will not be because attitudes changed and his blades are suddenly viewed as being far more beautiful than the primitives were capable of appreciating in the 2010s. It will be because the Juyo committe now has the benefit of hindsight and historical context of not just his own works but how they compare to his immediate peers and successors - and with this new context, his blades are now understood to be of importance to the history of Nihonto.

Edited November 24, 2018 by eternal_newbie

[Guest Rayhan]

I wish to be diplomatic here so let me try to extract what is the essence of Tokubetsu Hozon ranking. I do not think it is easy to get there for just any sword. Swords must display the characteristics of health and preservation, respect that has gone into keeping them well and good over centuries, this is not “easy “so to say and we have no firm account of what the sword went through to make it here in 2018 without being neglected, that says a lot. There are many swords at Juyo that are also problem blades and in terrible shape but they have provenance so confining Tokubetsu Hozon to one bucket is not fair.

 

Juyo is not finite as of now, we must remember that not all swords will pass Juyo for certain many, many never will. But, The NBTHK knows that we must keep the window open in any competition and that means there must be a good pool of candidates every year. There will be a time that there are no longer any Heian-Nanbukucho blades in Juyo competitions because we have exhausted the pool and those left are not worthy so the time of Muromachi to Edo will be born. The pool of Muromachi to Edo will be much smaller and this will culminate in a great increase in value across the Juyo range. In turn if the Juyo pools are closing the Tokuju pools are closing and value is growing significantly. For swords in these pools they are now (future now) reaching the plateau. Do not mistake a plateau in antiquity to be a bad thing, it could be in the millions of dollars. But, we know that older swords have a limit in quantity, these are not a commodity, they are the gold ingots that time has preserved. Thus, Tokubetsu Hozon has a place with those looking at long term investments.

 

At this time we have favouritism because the pool is not exhausted yet so there is room for that. But great master works are not infinite so they will reach the end of a cycle and those that own them are lucky and those that own the next generation of Picasso, to Rothko, to Warhol and Pollock are also lucky, you own contenders and patience is but the virtue. The same will be of the ultra-modern Banksy here and there (barring any shredders).

 

Finding fault in the system and the judges is folly. They see more swords than we can hope to so they will not make an uninformed decision and profit has little to do with it I believe as they are fully interested in preservation of their heritage as custodians of the future and history. A badly damaged sword that was held by Tokugawa in battle that saved his life and built a nation is any day (even broken in half) more valuable than a Juyo sword in good condition for a historical custodian as long as that provenance can be proven. But Nihonto is a combination of quality, history, provenance and personal preference. Important to remember is the pool of swords is finite.

 

Darcy has been humble in explaining his learning curve of years, I have only met him once but I can say, there are very few with this curve, I can count them on 2 hands, perhaps that is my limited network, but what is for sure is that scholars in Nihonto are a testament to value creation in collections in any art. Either learn the hard way or listen to experience. In my case (listening has always been more cost effective, but, I like the hard way. I know there are members who go that way too.)

 

That being said, when we say Juyo is important and Tokuju is extremely important kind of kills it when we have thrown in multi-million dollar artists from the western world in the discussion because Juyo should mean barely attainable and Tokuju should mean the pinnacle of art. Taking the literal translation simply devalues the effort. Because what is “important” to one is not relevant to the other person, but, Da Vinci is desired by all and unattainable by 99.99999% of the global population, that is where Tokuju will eventually go, the reason it is not there yet is simply time has not given Tokuju 500 years of survivability. We are barely 50 years into it. Now, what if they change the system? Where is the guarantee that they will not change the system to suit their financial needs, the day they give us one the more Hozon and Tokuju will be worth, but are they thinking that far ahead?

 

In my experience there is always bias, if we have no bias then the item has no value because we are looking at glass that is just clear, neutral and has no intrinsic value to what moves and speaks to us as art. You will always be bias because you are an individual and just like swords, no two are alike.

There is no difference in financial speak between the $10 bill and the $100 dollar bill because someone has told us that for $100 you can buy 100 packs of gum and for $10 you can buy 10 pack. Money is a piece of paper (or if in Singapore plastic) that has a value bestowed upon it by perception of material accommodation, what can I get for my buck? The value is as Darcy say in knowing what you are buying and is it worth it? The gum gets to go up and down in value depending on financial behavior like inflation, interest rates…did Megan Fox chew this gum? But not all gum is created equal and learning is the key to any curve.

 

Be objective and not subjective

[TheGermanBastard]

 

If Gassan Sadakazu goes Juyo (and that's not a guarantee!), it will not be because attitudes changed and his blades are suddenly viewed as being far more beautiful than the primitives were capable of appreciating in the 2010s. It will be because the Juyo committe now has the benefit of hindsight and historical context of not just his own works but how they compare to his immediate peers and successors - and with this new context, his blades are now understood to be of importance to the history of Nihonto.

 

I call that a change of oppinion / bias

 

It is all bias and taste  in art.

[Darcy]

This is why I don't like to post on this board.

 

Luis, this is not the argument:

 

 

But hey, it is a free world so everybody is allowed to do what they like best, enjoy what they like best and spend their money on what they like best.

 

The board ate my response.

 

Then I wrote a long one and I deleted it because I don't want to have these arguments.

 

By all means assess me as the guy who just doesn't get it, who needs to learn more and study more and get more insight into what is going on. 

 

Your wife's opinion on swords may be different from your own and that is just an argument that she doesn't know anything. That same differential in knowledge applies at every scale going up. It's just that you think you have hit the peak and your subjective belief is objective and it isn't.

 

Modern swords are from a period of time after the samurai era. They are products of atomic theory, computers and electric lights. They will exist in their thousands, they were never meant for use, they will never be used and do not have to maintain a reputation for cutting and durability. 

 

They are only objects for visual appreciation. As such they do not stand with an 800 year old Heian blade that cut people's heads open and lived to tell the tale and then suffered through centuries of war and chaos and at impossible odds survived to the present day.

 

What you are doing is propagating the bad and wrong idea that a pretty sword is a Juyo sword.

 

Master smiths got a reputation of being master smiths because they made masterpieces. As such they pass Juyo not because there is bias to the smith, but because their work is masterwork. That is the beginning and the end of it. 

 

If such pieces were considered masterpieces over 800 years then they would be easier to pass Juyo today.

 

When 800 years of Japanese warriors, noblemen, emperors, daimyo and scholars never gave a smith credit, but you and your wife do today, it's not because THEY don't get it, it's because YOU don't get it and you need to put the ego down and study.

[mywei]

Obviously as nihonto is an art and not a science there will be some degree of subjective opinion and fluidity... I am still learning the Juyo 'game', but I agree with Darcy in that certain schools and smiths are more predominantly featured at Juyo level simply due to the fact that if a mumei blade of a certain style reaches a certain quality it will be attributed to the 'top' smith/school of that style - the Norishige/Tametsugu-Sanekage/Uda/Shimada argument for example makes sense.That is why you see Juyo attributed to the first 3 smiths in that list, but very rarely the last 2.

 

So therefore unless you have a signed example of a 'lower' tier school it will be less likely to pass Juyo, as any high quality mumei blades by this school would already have been attributed to a higher tier school of that style. I guess you could call it a sort of selection bias at the H/TH level, but there is a certain logic.

 

My 2c

[TheGermanBastard]

Obviously as nihonto is an art and not a science there will be some degree of subjective opinion and fluidity

 

That is my point.

 

Now it is may be due to my poor command of English language or due to my poor humour or most likely both that I could not bring accross my point

 

Nihonto = Japanese Art Sword

 

Art is NO science but always a subjective issue. Hence there is bias. Even in science there is bias on many occasions by the way - which should not be ...

 

Some of the hightes rates blades by the NTHK would not go Juyo, and some Juyo blades may not get a as high rathing by the NTHK as they both do have their own = subjetcive rules. The rules are consistent so you can likely predict how well a blade well get rated by either organization but again it is a subjective rating according to an organizations defined terms.

 

Some old Juyos might no longer go Juyo these days and some blades that do not go Juyo nowadays will do in the future.

 

In the end I find the discussion about Juyo pretty annoying ... it is like everybody was dying for getting the centerfold of the year and forgetting about all the girls next door. This would result in many unhappy girls and boys and klling man kind ...

 

But to be serious again: Everybody feel free to talk about what they enjoy best in Nihonto and there is little doubt about the quality of Juyo blades but there should be no doubt that it is to be taken with a grain of bias.

 

And again I am with matt when he calls it "Juyo Game" ... other respected persons call it competition

[Ray Singer]

I had a laugh at this, having had the same experience with Bob. I got a call from him during a visit to Japan where he was viewing one of my swords at a dealer's shop while it was waiting for export. He said "I saw your sword. It's a toothpick." When I offered "Well yes, but it is Heian?" he replied "Yes, it's a Heian toothpick." I've always appreciated his blunt honesty, which seems rare to encounter in this field.

 

 

One of the best things I ever heard from a dealer was Bob Benson telling me, "Why did you buy that piece of junk?" 

 

On another blade: "It's a toothpick."

 

This is how you cut your teeth and learn something. 

[Ray Singer]

One day will well likely see Gassan Sadakazu go Juyo.

 

Quote from Arnold Frenzel below.

 

"Just looking through my Juyo Index (NBTHK, Heisei 11 (1999)), which I should have done sooner, shows on p.78 of the post-koto volume that Gassan Sadakazu had a wakizashi, 45.6 cm, dated Meiji 41 (1908), 3rd. month, a day, awarded Juyo Token status. That was two years after he and Suguwara Kanenori were designated Teisitsu Gigei-In status by Emperor Meiji. That is generally acknowledged as equivalent to the post-war so-called Living National Treasure status. The Sadakazu was designated Showa 46 (1971), 6,1."

[Mark S.]

Oh boy... as an absolute newbie, I’m extremely nervous dipping a toe into this discussion between much more learned men than I... but I’m going to do so anyway. Having said that, I’m asking a question to learn, not giving an opinion of something I have no rights to give an opinion about.

 

My question has to do with Juyo and ‘importance’... but that it is also a ‘competition’ between important blades and not all important blades are equal at any particular Juyo. Can anyone (who has the patience) explain why a $100 bill is not always a $100 bill (and I do not use that example in a derogatory way... it just made total sense in the other example) when compared to another $100 bill ‘this time’ but might next time? Is not ‘important’, important at any time? I’m sorry my ignorance is clouding my ability to understand. I do get that my Kai-Mihara blade (for example) will never be important because it’s just not and I would never argue that it should be just because I want it to be.

 

I guess another way to ask my question (and in no way is this questioning the Juyo process) is why do they use a ‘competition process’ as opposed to a simple judgement of ‘important or not’?

 

Question submitted in the most respectful manner (of those involved here) as I possibly can.

Mark S.

[Vermithrax16]

Quote from Arnold Frenzel below.

 

"Just looking through my Juyo Index (NBTHK, Heisei 11 (1999)), which I should have done sooner, shows on p.78 of the post-koto volume that Gassan Sadakazu had a wakizashi, 45.6 cm, dated Meiji 41 (1908), 3rd. month, a day, awarded Juyo Token status. That was two years after he and Suguwara Kanenori were designated Teisitsu Gigei-In status by Emperor Meiji. That is generally acknowledged as equivalent to the post-war so-called Living National Treasure status. The Sadakazu was designated Showa 46 (1971), 6,1."

I am 100% sure many people have put a full listing of the Juyo swords together and I just can't figure why that list has not made it into the public domain as yet.

 

Darcy wrote in a prior response:

"In all of that I can just continue to distill down to those who have only 15 minutes to listen that they need to understand that Juyo means Important and Tokubetsu Juyo means Extraordinarily Important. If you can just sit and meditate on those two ideas for a week and then look at something in your hands and say, "Is this important?" or ... is it just a nice blade? "

 

Well not a week but I thought about it quite a bit. I will keep my thoughts to myself but any reasonable line of thinking is going to arrive at the same conclusion.

[Vermithrax16]

We discussed this sword a while ago when it was offered, a Tokubetsu Juyo Ishido Nagayuki work. I try and think about this sword as it applies to this thread and the thought experiment:

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as17202-%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E9%95%B7%E5%B9%B8%E6%96%BC%E6%91%82%E6%B4%A5%E5%9B%BD%E4%BD%9C%E4%B9%8B%E7%AC%AC24%E5%9B%9E%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5%E9%87%8D%E8%A6%81%E5%88%80%E5%89%A3-katana-nagayuki-oite-settsu-koku-saku-korenbthk-24th-tokubetsu

[Fred Geyer]

So here I go...…... , what Darcy is saying is 100 percent true my time line was 18 years and looking at a ton of Juyo blades and also going to as may NBTHK American exhibits at shows as I could seeing the best and...... truly studying the best.

 

When you see why they went Juyo and what it takes to move a sword or fittings to the next level you will somewhat understand the "tooth pick".... fittings student not master comment !

 

Many years ago I saw the best fittings and swords at a showing in Japan and held many Nanbokucho blades that looked like Shinshinto and Ichijo tsuba and Goto sets and one Masatsune tsuba that I knew I had to start over and now I have a different thought about great is ... as I saw great... always study great !

 

So now I hear it in the group  "well I cant afford great" ...so 18 years of study and as Darcy notes just knowing what to look for my last 2 Juyo , one from a gun show $800 the other off a online site $1800 in the last 2 years.

 

So to a person who kind of sets on the side line, its OK if you love a sword that will never go Juyo ...I have them and same on fittings you love it GREAT study , learn , read, study more ...go to shows go to the NBTHK displays study and see great anytime you can ...everyone 

 

STUDY ..STUDY ...STUDY ....you will know the lemon in duct tape and you will be.... DAMN I really see JUYO !!!

 

OK I am done ! Happy Thanksgiving everyone !

 

Fred        

[eternal_newbie]

Can anyone (who has the patience) explain why a $100 bill is not always a $100 bill (and I do not use that example in a derogatory way... it just made total sense in the other example) when compared to another $100 bill ‘this time’ but might next time?

 

$100 dollar bills are being printed as we speak, day by day. One of those modern day $100 bills will always be equivalent to another $100 bill from the same process, currently in circulation (assuming it's not too badly damaged to be used as currency - this is a 'fatal flaw' like a hagire).

 

But then something changes - a new form of serialisation number, a slight change of artwork or background for added security, a change in the makeup of the paper used to print it. Suddenly there's a finite range on those old $100 bills. Slowly, over time, some of them get destroyed - by wear, water damage, burnt in fires, or simply blown away on the wind into the sea. Those bills get rarer and rarer, and their historical value starts going up. A 75-year old $100 bill from a different printing process, of which maybe 100,000 remain, is now worth more (albeit not too much) than a modern $100 bill being printed by the millions. This is not to say it's any more or less useful as currency, but the historical value has now changed.

 

Now imagine the case where out of those old 75-year old bills, a very small fraction of them had some sort of defect. Maybe the 1 was facing the other way, or there was a very slight misalignment. Possibly 50 or so of those remain in existence, throughout the entire world... That's your Juyo. They now have significant historical importance for numismatics and are universally recognised as such, regardless of whether any given numismatist prefers collecting old Japanese coins or shiny new Euro notes. And out of those, maybe 10 were still in close to mint condition, no tearing, very little folding or foxing... that's your Tokuju.

 

Now imagine this assessment of "important or not" was done once a year. Imagine it being held a mere 10 years after these bills stopped being printed, and the assessment was flooded with a bunch of those defective bills. Only the nicest, cleanest ones in mint condition are considered important (if indeed any of them are considered important at all) - after all, there's hundreds, if not thousands of them in imperfect condition floating around, right?

 

Then 65 years later, when there's only 50 left in existence, one of those slightly foxed, crumpled notes that was dismissed all those years ago shows up again. Is it still dismissed as not important?

 

Obviously it's not a perfect comparison as with art we have to deal with how the work compares to other works of the artist (see the endless discussions around -den) as well as how highly regarded/influential the artist was in his field, while $100 bills more or less appear identical, but you get the idea.

[Prewar70]

I'm a neophyte, but what Darcy says makes perfect sense to me. I think our egos get in the way. THe additional commentary on Hozon vs. TH is interesting too in regards to western v. Eastern views. After reading this again I opened up AOI and saw these two swords. Obviously in Japan, good schools, old, so, why TH? Darcy I'm curious, what are your thoughts? Juyo candidates, or already tried and not Juyo material so get TH papers and off to a home in the states? If you would submit to Juyo, why TH papers?

 

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bizen-sukeyori/

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-uda-kunifusa/

[Guest Rayhan]

@James To be honest the Bizen Sukeyori in this case is a beautiful sword for its age and provenance but in terms of quality I think there are better ones out there. Not only that but I have no Idea what the polisher was thinking here as I can faintly see Choji in the background but they went more with the subdued gunome midare and there is Utsuri also, the rough patches are mentioned by Aoi in the description on the Shinogi Ji so I am guessing NBTHK looked at this and could not come to a consensus so it went out the door with its original paper again. Looking at it on this current state I do not think it has a hope of Juyo but who knows in the future? The Uda has a nice Sugata but again, it is a bit thin right and from the Uda school making the priority less so harder to compete for Juyo slots against more deserving swords or schools. I would have expected the Uda to have a far more imposing profile for this period also.

 

@Fred I love these stories of great finds, that is what we need to keep the interest in study going! Well done and nice finds!

 

We also need to remember that certain smiths played a political role in ancient Japan and were used to fulfil a need. When someone ask me who invented the concept of marketing I always respond "Someone in ancient Asia, then some guy from Kellogg School of Management in the USA (Kotler)" because the concept of highlighting a certain smith, artisan or philosopher was taking place time immemorial. Thus, certain bias will even emerge there because these marketing trends follow us collectors today. You tell someone you can have a bannged up Masamune (with Hagire) or a pristine Yukimitsu and the guys who love the marketing plava will go for the Masamune where some collectors would not bother with the Masamune. Why? because everyone, even those not interested in swords know who Masamune is by legend. With regards to being a master in any form of art the fact that they used an original method or medium specifically developed by them as innovators plays a huge role too and there are evolutions and innovations throughout sword manufacturing history, they contributed greatly to the progress of their art. Some swords must be pretty in order to pass Juyo, because it is expected of them, take for instance the Toranba of Sukehiro or Suishinshi Masahide. These smiths that have Toranba (which is an aesthetic hamon and if used in combat did not exactly fulfil the swords purpose, they broke...a lot) So tell a collector you can have Tsuda Sukehiro with Suguha or with Toranba and see what they say, they will associate this smith with Toran and go for the pretty one rather than the functional one. Show both those swords to a juyo panel and they will go with the pretty one first (assuming all other variables are kept constant.) 

 

Darcy is trying to tell us that we need to look at all, all the variables (there are a ton of them) before we make a call on what would be considered juyo and pass. Only experience can do that for us. In this respect this art is a science.

[Brian]

This is why I don't like to post on this board.

Luis, this is not the argument:

The board ate my response.

Then I wrote a long one and I deleted it because I don't want to have these arguments...

See, this is where you and I disagree, and about the only place I disagree with you Darcy. You and I have been through this before.

You take considerable time to write an essay on some matter and post it. 1000 People read it, nod their heads in agreement, and make a mental note of your points and it guides them for the rest of their collecting days. They don't feel the need to post their agreement....they just take it to heart. Another 50 people might not 100% agree with everything, but they note your points, and they hang about in their heads, and they at least question things they believed before, and it forms part of their decision making in the future.

One (or 2 or 5) guys have a differing opinion, and post it as such. They are entitled to their opinion, but may or may not have valid points. But that is taken as a reason not to post regularly. Perhaps there is belief that everyone reading now forgets your points completely, and you wasted your time? But that is simply not the case. There may be a handful of uninformed people who follow whatever is written by anyone. But thinking that your time is wasted is simply not true. They are not the future collectors. Or they are still in the beginning stages and need much more guidance.

You can't ever get 100% agreement online. Never happen. Or even in real life. Posting here is no different to having a discussion with a group of collectors. People must be allowed their opinions. But the fact that one or 2 post differing opinions (valid or not) will never detract from the message.

We could do a poll, and ask how many "lurkers" take on board what you write. But that is not needed. I know from discussions and stats and hosting figures what impact it has.

It is never a reason "not to post" or not to get into arguments. I know it is draining. It is time consuming and it causes stress. I do this daily..I know it seems like a waste of time sometimes. But it isn't.

What it is, is important to the few thousand who do read, do "take onboard" and even if they have some reservations, will be better collectors because of it.

I'm not the only one pushing you to post when you have time or inclination. We don't expect it regularly. But you have to know it is both worthwhile, and it matters.

I won't ever censor counter points. That is not what forums are about. But do not think that discussion or debate nullifies what you put out there.

 

Don't know why the board "eats your replies" since it doesn't happen to me. But I do copy most long replies before hitting submit just in case the hosting limitations pop up.

And yes....I have lost count of the times I wrote something long, only to delete it in the interests of not arguing. That is the nature of online participation. It is far worse on that hell that is FB

[Guest Rayhan]

@ Darcy - I have told you when we met that my entire true collecting journey was started by my father introducing me to Japan and Nihonto (Aoi)  and then when I discovered your site. That led me through to everything I know today, so you're responsible for a lot of collectors Darcy and we wished you were on here more. Especially those that need the education. 

 

I agree with Brian more is needed form experienced collectors

[eternal_newbie]

I do think there's room to improve on how we handle these arguments as far as discussion goes - too often we allow the conversation to get dragged away from the initial point by trying to persuade (or browbeat) someone into agreeing with the rest of us when they are clearly unreceptive to it. While it looks and feels constructive, like we're defending the integrity of our fellow board members and upholding truth, it also grants the disruptive party more power than they perhaps should have by allowing them to dictate the terms of discussion. I've encountered this when it comes to arguments in economics, politics etc. - sometimes the most constructive thing you can do is state that you respect their right to hold an opinion, but disagree personally, and then return to the base topic at hand.

 

In this case, what was (and to a certain extent, still is) a deeply informative discussion about the specific criteria and judging processes involved in the Juyo designation, has instead turned into a slugfest over whether art in general should be judged subjectively instead of objectively. It's true that there are artistic merits to the Japanese sword, but that's not the entire purpose of their existence - they are weapons with over a thousand years of martial and political significance, and as such, their historical import is every bit as germane to the discussion of their worth.

 

Additionally, the idea that Juyo/Tokuju shinsa is a case of everybody overlooking the forest for the trees (or "dying over the centrefolds" as it were) presupposes that the Juyo participants reflect the majority of the sword market, when in fact it's mostly the cream of the sword collector crop and those attempting to break into that category, while the vast majority of collectors are quite happy to pursue the "girls next door." I am in the process of saving for my first Juyo, and in doing so I have liquidated my entire collection of "girl next door" nihonto. Every. single. one. of them found a willing buyer within two weeks of listing - even the one that had been burnt and has basically no hamon left. That one actually had a second buyer lining up in case the first buyer changed their mind!

 

Rather than arguing over whether art has objective merit, let's go back to recognising that Juyo is a designation that intentionally encompasses artistic, functional and historic significance, and proceed from there. If you disagree with the fundamental basis of Juyo, by all means create a separate thread titled "What Juyo should be" or "The problem with Juyo." Those arguments have merit and deserve their own discussion in depth - but are not relevant to the original topic here, which is the outcome of the process that already exists, and what is required to receive those outcomes.

[Shugyosha]

I think that Brian has put this rather well.

 

From my point of view, I've been happy to sit back on this thread and gather what information I can and file it away for (hopefully) future use. I don't know enough to weigh in with views of my own on this subject but have enjoyed reading and respect the opinions of those who have contributed. 

 

Best,

John

[Gakusee]

I'm a neophyte, but what Darcy says makes perfect sense to me. I think our egos get in the way. THe additional commentary on Hozon vs. TH is interesting too in regards to western v. Eastern views. After reading this again I opened up AOI and saw these two swords. Obviously in Japan, good schools, old, so, why TH? Darcy I'm curious, what are your thoughts? Juyo candidates, or already tried and not Juyo material so get TH papers and off to a home in the states? If you would submit to Juyo, why TH papers?

 

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-bizen-sukeyori/

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-uda-kunifusa/

 

Just a few thoughts on the Sukeyori (there has been a lot said already about the challenges of Uda, justified bias for established top schools etc), which is not a bad blade at all but it has some issues and is already “priced” at Juyo level:

 

- firstly, the Juyo standard requires extremely high quality workmanship and state of preservation. I cannot see the state of the shinogiji as Aoi’s clever picture taking has obscured the shinogi but it is described as shaved and rough. Secondly, the nakago has been reshaped in a not very elegant manner - one can see how it curves unnaturally below the machi in an attempt to give it a nice koshizori or to fit koshirae. You could tell substance has been lost by the placement of the ana.

- now onto the more subtle aspects: the smith, mei, etc.Sukeyori smiths are either KoBizen or KoAoe or Ichimonji. Rather obscure those two or three or four guys (so not jojosaku or saijusaku anyway). But if you look at the workmanship, you will see that they mostly created slender swords with ko-kissaki. For the Aoe Sukeyori the mei is katana side so this guy should be KoBizen or Ichimonji. Substance of this sword is more mid or late Kamakura (3.2 cm width and rather large kissaki) but the kissaki is atypical for all the Sukeyori I have as my references

- the mei, while there, is also confusing. It does not look like the Aoe or Ichimonji ones in the references. But more importantly, it does not follow the normal syntax, which is either simply Sukeyori (almost all visual references) or Bizen no kuni Sukeyori. So, again you have something rather atypical and not quite right, combined with unusual tagane (chiselling) and style.

 

So, the shinsa usually needs to reach a consensus without a doubt and when you are presented with so many aberrations to the canon (possibly combined with unseen in hand condition issues), then it is difficult to elevate the sword to Juyo, even though it is old, signed and decent

[mywei]

Regarding the Sukeyori, there is one listed as Nitta, a contemporary late Kamakura Bizen side school (similar to Wake). They both had Yamashiro influences in their work which could fit the bill for with the "Aoe" influence I think in this sword.

 

The relative obscurity of Nitta work could explain why it has not reached Juyo as yet.

 

Sorry for sidetracking

[BIG]

Darcy you have to post..( or leave your radio silence ) the board feeds you and you surely scouts the members..

 

Only the nobility gets into hell, the rest stands in front of it and warms up.

 

Best

 

PS

 

with an other quote.."Buongiorno,buona gente!" let us be proud members

[Jussi Ekholm]

@Jeremiah, there is the book Jūyō Tōken Tobun Rui Mokuroku which has listing of Jūyō swords from 1956 to 1999. I am not sure about more modern Jūyō listings after that. I thought about buying it for many years but decided that it does not have enough information for me to use on my own database and learning.

 

I'm building a database on swords that are roughly from Heian to 1450. I'll give 1st prototype of it to NMB members once I pass 5000 sword mark (it will take time), I'm bit over 2500 swords at the moment (all Kokuhō, 298 JūBu, 193 JuBi etc. listed so far). That time frame is my own interest and I did have to narrow it to that as otherwise the information amount would be completely overwhelming as there are just so many swords around.

 

Rayhan, Michael and Matt gave some insight about the Sukeyori. I know for a fact that this was listed earlier on Aoi Art too, I think it might have been for sale in 2015 (asking price 4M then), and also possibly another time too, that sword seems so familiar. Also the origin of this blade is bit uncertain for me (which is no surprise as it might be for far more experienced ones too). I put this to Ko-Bizen Sukeyori in my database. Like Michael said above the Sukeyori smiths in general seem to be not too known or highly thought of. I have listed 2 signed tachi by Ko-Aoe Sukeyori that are also Tokubetsu Hozon.

 

While a sword like that would be a crown jewel of my own collection it is somewhat problematic sword. Still I'd rather take it over many mumei Jūyō blades.

[Ooitame]

Good thread, glad to see some examples of what was submitted and either passed or failed; my thanks for sharing. I have to say this thread by far has been one of the best for educational puposes. There are actual examples and various inputs, well done.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Ooitame

[Gakusee]

Well, indeed this topic is refreshing especially given that every second recent thread on the Board was lately about one gunto or another. So, whatever Rayhan’s intention behind starting it, it is actually good to air thoughts and exercise our brain cells and stimulate healthy debate.

 

Matt - it almost does not matter which obscure smith made that Aoi’s Sukeyori. It is a good to very good sword but again we go to the gist of Juyo, which is about excellence and state of preservation. Often in Japan excellence is associated with the canon and top masters and this Sukeyori is not there since it deviates from the canon sufficiently as to raise questions, is not by a top smith and there are condition issues.

Juyo criteria interpretation tightened in the last 5-6 years (especially when compared to 1975-1979), and recently I have seen many top names (Muramasa, Rai, Hatakeda) “only” at TH and that prompted me to study their state of preservation and qualities in detail. We need to be critical and objective of all the aspects and not stop the mental process at “old, famous name, nice looking sword - ergo, should be Juyo”. Remember - it is a competition where the blade competes with other smiths’ blades and also blades by the same smith (though latter more prevalent at TokuJu). Once granted, the status stays. Some smiths will always get Juyo by virtue of being grandmasters - Soshu giants (Masamune, Sadamune, Yukimitsu), KoBizen legends (the Tomonari, the Masatsune), Awataguchi, San/Gojo, etc. Even if they are “only” at Hozon, they might be priced as Juyo/TJ because the seller and the buyer both know those will get to at least Juyo.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are hidden gems (unpolished, unpapered or with superseded papers). Then it takes a lot of skill and knowledge and a bit of luck to identify those and paper them up. Fred is a case in point and a friend of mine also did that with a top blade.

 

Jussi - congratulations for the enthusiasm and perseverance to build that database. Others clearly have had similar thoughts (Stan with his smiths database and others). It takes a monumental effort and dedication.

[Guest Rayhan]

Intention was education only

[gpapandreas]

All,

I think this is it!

https://www.touken.or.jp/Portals/0/pdf/shinsa/第64回重要刀剣等指定品発表.pdf

George

[Rivkin]

Its interesting that as long as I remember lunch breaks at DTI, the conversation always goes to something like "say you have singed koto jo-jo-saku piece but hamachi is moved by an inch; how many times do you need to submit it to Juyo to get one with 80% probability, and how less money it will sell for in Tokyo market".

 

That was always the thing that other collectors associated with nihonto community.

You just never hear discussions about how hard it is to get one with this kind of utsuri or whether Akihiro is more interesting than Masamune - and whether the latter is actually a composite and of how many people that would be.

Instead its 100th time repetition of who gets it right with price=function of (papers, signature, -discounts for various issues) and the ingredients that go into converting one color of papers into another.

Even in NBTHK journal - I mean what was the last time there was an actual argument published there? One article attacking attributions, another defending? Every second article is reading a 19th century theologian - and some say Simon was actually the same person as the prophet Simon, and he got married at 431 of age and begoth Jacob, who relocated to Mutsu to study under Joshua and likely was a step brother of apostle John.

 

There is sort of similarity with modern art market, where you get to hear never-ending discussions about which provenance is acceptable today, and which was declared passe, and how being in between will affect your Pollack. 

 

Kirill R.

[Vermithrax16]

Maybe Brian should start a Juyo section on NMB. As 98% of everything else falls out of that level, may be better to have a dedicated section.