Without Words

[vajo]

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/l/146051/a_kiri_ha_tachi_nara_period_710_-_794?aid=147&Lstatus=0&Accid=1787&currentpos=1&fbclid=IwAR1oRbKu4rFr5MIlZutZdJX0EG3erSsq1jE3Nmj8fokEJC4MrSsPfckcdAg

 

pos.no.: 119

A kiri ha tachi, Nara period (710 - 794)

Starting price 400 EUR

Sold

 

 

 

 

[TETSUGENDO]

Interesting 'relic' I suppose, It is certainly not a sword any longer.  As they say....there is a buyer for everything!

 

-S-

[CSM101]

The artefact is now part of the Samurai Art Museum in Berlin. And I think it is worth the price.

 

Uwe G.

[TETSUGENDO]

Barring possible metallurgical interest....this 'CURIO' is a mute witness.

 

-S-

[PNSSHOGUN]

I've seen many similar at the local junkyard....

[ChrisW]

Dang, the poor thing. To imagine what it may have been...

[vajo]

That could be everything. Its a rusty, destroyed piece of iron. I don't know how someone take a look on it and find out it is from Nara period from the eight century.

 

Uwe, when it is displayed now in the samurai museum it must be good?

 

It would be nice to have a clear explanation.

 

I think it could be a sword, yes. It came from the Ott Collection and now it is displayed in Berlin. Thats all.

[CSM101]

I hope, I get the story straight:

 

 

Ott-san was short after WWII in Japan. He lived there several months. He was wild and free and...whatever. And he made a lot of friends over there.

 

One day he was in the Tokyo National Museum. Not in the ususal exhibition but in the catacombs. With the director.

He looked at some of the swords in the rack and suddenly the director gave him one of the swords as a gift. That´s how the blade came into

the Ott-collection. Impossible nowadays. (That was the short censored version).

 

Is the sword good? That´s how you define it.

 

It is a piece of metal with a history. That´s for sure. And you have to see it in a historical context.

 

 

Uwe G.

[vajo]

Thanks Uwe. With this story its more belivable.

[YOJIMBO]

That could be everything. Its a rusty, destroyed piece of iron. I don't know how someone take a look on it and find out it is from Nara period from the eight century.

 

Uwe, when it is displayed now in the samurai museum it must be good?

 

It would be nice to have a clear explanation.

 

I think it could be a sword, yes. It came from the Ott Collection and now it is displayed in Berlin. Thats all.

 

agree

[ROKUJURO]

I think it is not appropriate to see this merely as a rusted piece of metal. In the first place, it was found in a historical context, so an assignment to the period was possible. This is a normal thing in archaeology if the dig was undisturbed. Modern research methods allow an in-depth analysis of the metallic structure (if any metal is still present and not turned into oxide). 

This is why today's experimental archaeology was able to reconstruct, among many other artefacts and only as an example, the Viking sword of Sutton-Hoo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo) in full beauty. It has a complex pattern-welded damascus blade. This was only possible after thorough analysis of the rusty remains of the original (https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/sword-from-the-ship-burial-at-sutton-hoo/uQGATpxRArOXnw  and  https://www.google.de/search?q=The+sword+of+Sutton+Hoo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=OhCDNQqw669ZOM%253A%252CVAEyoskYl0k58M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kT2liyvMt3-OGln8q_xlP_J0M6YxA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjrtGnjcfeAhVFJFAKHeDLAeoQ9QEwD3oECAUQBA#imgrc=OhCDNQqw669ZOM:).      

[mfarrar]

Not sure it could take another polish... Maybe submit to shinsa first

[Dave R]

 This is about the difference between a collectable item, and a museum piece. The one is for personal pleasure, and the other for research and learning.

[Luc T]

there exist lab's for this:

https://www.kotalla.de/?lang=en

I examinate all my old stuff.   The results are sometimes not really what the story behind it tells.

[Luc T]

I once bought a kofun armor, with full description of the finding place, pictures and so on.

At a certain moment, I became suspicious, the armor was almost better than the ones in the National Museum of Tokyo...

Scientific examination discovered that the russet was made with a modern chemical product....

The Japanese  seller  with a golden reputation took it back..

me happy     and I learned a lot!

[Luc T]

The good news is, once you have a scientific proof, you know 100% sure what you have.

[IanB]

Not an antiquity, but at the other end of the spectrum was an armour I bought from Yahoo Japan, parts of which were fibreglass. I had to cut a chunk out of the helmet bowl to prove it was fake and get my money back. They had made casts of both the inside and outside of the helmet bowl and bonded them together, even mixing iron filings with the resin so that it attracted a magnet. Annoying really because the dou was real and rather nice. There are some clever fakers out there.

Ian Bottomley

[SAS]

I have a lot of similar artifacts on our property; most of which were from old buses and shop equipment. Someday, an archeologist will have a field day up there....