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Kiyomaro Jūyō Daishō


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#1 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:12 PM

Just saw this rare thing to pop up at Iida Koendo. Can't even dare to think about the price tag. :rotfl:

 

http://iidakoendo.com/4947/

 


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#2 Rayhan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:15 PM

Yeah we're touching the 2 bedroom apartment zone here

#3 mywei

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:24 PM

I actually don't really know the market price for a ubu Kiyomaro daito ? $200-300k USD or something similarly ridiculous?

So this would probably be around half a million? Pfft chump change ;)
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#4 Pete Klein

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 04:42 PM

The only guy who might know is Darcy.  Juyo papered true dai sho, not married.  LOL!  More than I'll ever have.


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#5 paulb

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 05:12 PM

In 1993 a Kiyomaru daito sold for more than $400k in Sotherby's London. At the time I think it was a record price paid for a Japanese sword at auction outside of Japan. A wakazashi by the same smith and in the same sale made approx $75k. The buyer of the long sword was Tsuruta san of Aoi-Art.

While many would argue that prices have dropped since the time of this sale I dont think that is the case for work of the top smiths and few are more popular or sought after than Kiyomaro so I think this pair would be well above the $500k mark.


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#6 Rayhan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:17 PM

I believe we are looking at around the 650k USD mark here minimum

But as i said, small home in a big city
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#7 Gakusee

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 08:37 PM

At those levels there are better and historically more important swords. You are in the area of Masamune tanto. Or one of the best Fukuoka Ichimonji - Yoshifusa (incidentally there is a zaimei one being sold by Shingendo at 42m yen with daimyo provenance). There is a lot of hype around that name but people should look deeper.
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#8 Rayhan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 08:49 PM

There is no denying his genius in sword making. But i also struggle to understand the market price for kiyomaro
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#9 Gakusee

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 08:52 PM

Rayhan- I also do not deny that when he made good swords, those were very good or excellent. But overall he is not better than his Koto “inspirations”.
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#10 Rayhan

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 07:47 AM

Agreed completely Michael, a true Shizu over Kiyomaro any day
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#11 Katsujinken

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 05:50 PM

Agreed completely Michael, a true Shizu over Kiyomaro any day


Hear, hear!
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#12 Peter Bleed

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:29 PM

Sure, this is interesting, and I'm glad to know about the opportunity. Thanks Jussi. But I'm going to stay with my established collecting strategy. One of these will show up at a local gun show. I'm sure. Or maybe an estate sale.

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#13 Jean

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 06:32 PM

Signed Minamoto Masayuki. Will fetch less than a Kiyomaro mei :)
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#14 Darcy

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 10:36 AM

Jean is right. Rayhan also has the price about right. 

 

Some people think though that Masayuki mei blades are better and in the Kiyomaro era there was a lot of "phoning it in" due to demand. I have also been told that he changed steel to a better source towards the very end. 

 

People should not call Masayuki as Kiyomaro any more than they should call Yamato Shizu as Shizu or Kunisada as Shinkai. Even though it's the same guy the styles are different and eras are different and the work is different. I sometimes call Echigo no Kami Kunisada as Terukane in the past and that's an error. The name you use implies what era and style you're talking about, so these should be called Masayuki. 


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#15 Rayhan

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 01:12 PM

Darcy did a great post on this a while back

https://yuhindo.com/...ntext/#more-840

#16 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:43 PM

I think it's a different view of semantics Darcy. For example I see that it is best to use the most common name used by the smith regardless if he used many names. Kiyomaro is the common name this smith goes by in discussions. If there is a signature of other name he used, that should tell you what you need to know.

 

Yamato Shizu - Shizu debate is problematic because there are no signed Yamato Shizu swords. For Yamato Shizu all are attributions which while made by experts can be problematic as proving them to be a fact is pretty much impossible.

 

I am not (yet) sure how many surviving true pairs of swords there are for Kiyomaro (with any of his signatures) but I'd think this is a pretty rare pair. Might be a long wait before another one pops up for sale as I think at this level of rarity there are multiple other factors than money involved too.


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#17 Darcy

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 04:06 PM

The point is exactly that it is not semantics. Viewing it as semantics is the essential error I am pointing out. 

 

there are no signed Yamato Shizu swords

 

There are at least five from the school. 

 

This is neither here nor there though. There are no Yamato Kaneuji Shodai signed blades known, that part is true, but it doesn't mean that you should confuse your nomenclature. You are conflating attributions with arbitrary basis with nomenclature. 

 

There isn't any debate on conflating Yamato Shizu with Shizu. There are swords that are so right down the middle they could be attributed to either group but this doesn't mean that you should mix the groups up.

 

Similarly you don't call "Niji Kunitoshi" as "Rai Kunitoshi" even though they are in fact the same man. Even though there is not a clear zone left to us where the name changed and the style evolved over maybe 10 years rather than overnight. There are blades that can go either way in terms of attribution.

 

But Niji Kunitoshi means one thing and Rai Kunitoshi means another and you shouldn't use one to refer to the other. That is a nomenclature issue. 

 

For Yamato Shizu all are attributions which while made by experts can be problematic as proving them to be a fact is pretty much impossible.

 

Proving any mumei attribution to be true is impossible. It does not mean that it is OK to get your nomenclature mixed up. 

 

Looking back at Rai Kunitoshi again especially if it is signed only "Kunitoshi" you are doing it wrong if you point at that and say Rai Kunitoshi, even though it is one and the same because that is not how the nomenclature works. When Niji Kunitoshi works were made the Rai signature did not exist. With the invention of a new style, roughly at the same time comes the introduction of a new signature. 

 

> I am not (yet) sure how many surviving true pairs of swords there are for Kiyomaro (with any of his signatures)
 
What is in public is one single daisho set and it is Tokubetsu Juyo. Then other set is Masayuki and it is the only Masayuki in public. That is the one Iida san has. 
 
It is very rare and important but you shouldn't call it Kiyomaro if you want to be accurate. When it was made Kiyomaro did not exist. The styles are different. Kiyomaro is an evolution of Masayuki. And there is a clear price difference in the market.
 
It is a brand after all. He didn't intend them to be equivalent. Nor are they equivalent. The conflation of the two leads to conclusions which are not accurate.
 
Why do I make a point of it?
 
Because if you don't note the difference it bites you in the ass one day. If you spread the mistake of conflating the two it bites other people in the ass one day. 
 
Someone goes and buys Masayuki for well below the price of Kiyomaro in the market and they pat themselves on the back for how savvy they are. If they have heard everyone talking about them as the same thing. If they believe they are the same thing. It's a position of ignorance because it isn't the same thing in the market. In reality they paid what they should have paid.
 
It is a huge issue because about 70% of business is driven by the perception of value. 
 
A lot of newbies will buy their Yamato Shizu school attributed blades and then pat themselves on the back because it was a lot cheaper than a Shizu which is attributed to Kaneuji in the text. They do not recognize the difference, they think it is all Kaneuji. 
 
They also don't recognize that there is a difference between a school attributed Yamato Shizu and a Shodai or Nidai Kaneuji attributed Yamato Shizu. As a result they just look to prices and when one is cheaper than the other they get that one and pat themselves on the back. 
 
There needs to be an understanding that the terms are not interchangeable and in order for people to understand that, it helps if people don't spread interchangeable use of the terms. 
 
We can go down through more gray areas like Sukehiro, where your average collector is not aware that there are three tiers of Nidai Sukehiro. The result is that they will think they are getting a bargain when buying the first tier and then price compare it against the third tier. Even if the signature are the same characters the signing habits being different reflect the period and skill level of Sukehiro while making the blade. From a practical matter people call the last and best form "round Tsuda" and that is how dealers will refer to them to each other to be clear. When selling they are not going to pound the table with the difference because it is going to be better to let the customer think he's getting a bargain at half Sukehiro price when he doesn't understand the difference. Most dealers will not try to inform people or teach them but will just lay stuff out and let the buyer/collector make a decision.
 
In this way a metric _____ton of stuff gets sold to people who think they are getting bargains only to find out many years later that they are not the same thing. 
 
So, I am hammering the point so people can learn something.
 
Masayuki is not the same as Kiyomaro and you shouldn't consider it a simple case of semantics. It's a case of lack of knowledge or a case of carelessness or a case of expediency but none of it helps clarify the real underlying difference. Continuing it as a habit is spreading disinformation, not for any nefarious purpose but it's a lazy use or an unknowingly incorrect use and ultimately that leads to someone making a terrible mistake who has absorbed all of that incorrect or mistaken use. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


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#18 Gakusee

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:34 PM

We need such sobering clarifications so that we are aware of subtle differences. They might not be to everyone’s liking but people need to develop thick skin and take the reality.

Once people are crystal clear on Masayuki vs Kiyomaro then they can make an informed decision to buy one or the other, understanding what they have got for their money.

This had been explained to me in the past with regard to some of the Hizen smiths and also Rai smiths but I did not pay attention to it until I started seeing significant price differentials and thinking I had discovered a price inefficiency - luckily I did not buy on the impulse to get something really cheap.
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#19 raymondsinger

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:37 PM

The situation I encounter most frequently is collectors who show me their nidai (Inoue) Izumi no kami Kunisada and can't believe their luck to have purchased a Shinkai for half or one third market price.

#20 seattle1

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:28 PM

Hello:

 With regard to Paul's post and trying to compare approximate apples to apples and avoiding the semantic tunnel of Masayuki/Kiyomaro, we must never forget the impact of rising prices in an inflationary period. The 1993 pair, not carrying the same date, but signed Masayuki. was in the April 1 sale, lots 7 and 8, and from the collection of Field Marshall Sir Francis Festing. The house estimate for the former was 100,000-150,000 Pounds, and the latter 20,000 - 30,000 Pounds, and the hammer price including premia for the daito 265,000 and for the ko-wakizashi 89,500, the USD values respectively being $398,250 and $134,250. To take the daito alone the $398,250, using the US CPI would have to be $696,938 to be "purchasing power equivalent", however that is essentially a term without meaning when the inter-temporal gap is so long and the relative price of Japanese swords in general has declined, though for particular smiths, such as Masayuki/Kiyomaro I would venture they have increased. Are the different directions of effects off setting? That is an empirical question for with I have no data.

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#21 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:22 PM

I guess I can nod in agreement Darcy. I know I shouldn't argue with people with far more knowledge, especially when I have to look up several words from dictionary. :laughing:

 

What you say about commercial side makes sense too. But I do personally think that buyer needs to gather knowledge and take responsibility of his/hers buys. I like how detailed and thorough your own descriptions about items are and I wish more dealers might take bit more time with descriptions but at the same time I think person buying should be researching as much as possible (it should not be dealers responsibility to provide every minute background info). I've felt many times lately that discussion tends to hover around commercial values (papers, prices etc.)

 

So, guess I'll try to bring the discussion back to the actual item. I confess that I do not know much about Kiyomaro. I have only few books left about Shinshintō but I read about Kiyomaros life. This daishō might be among the last ones with Masayuki mei as I look at the dating. The pair is dated 1845, 弘化二年二月日 and his father died at the end of third month of Kōka 2, so possibly this was made month or two earlier. Then the earliest dating for Kiyomaro mei is Jūyō Bijutsuhin 1846, 弘化丙午年八月日. I've found other Masayuki signatures that have same dating but not one later than that (granted my Shinshintō mei references are very limited). I am not sure if Kiyomaro made swords between his fathers death and the Jūbi he made for Kubota Sugane, as he moved with Masao to Edo during that time.


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#22 Rayhan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:38 PM

The situation I encounter most frequently is collectors who show me their nidai (Inoue) Izumi no kami Kunisada and can't believe their luck to have purchased a Shinkai for half or one third market price.

I too have a Kunisada that is described as Inoue Shinkai and I am guilty of saying that too. But there is an absolute distinction in price where even Daisaku Inoue Shinkai are in the 20-40k+ range and Inoue Shinkai (works attributed to his peak) are in the 65-100k+ ranges. It plainly speaks to the quality of his work at that time. But there are so many variables that also need to be taken into account. Assume that the collection has a direction, within this direction there is a budget applied and allocating this budget wisely also makes sense. If having an Osaka smith or smiths is the goal then perhaps one would rather hold out for Tsuda Sukehiro, maybe other features are more important, etc. This is a personal preference distinguished by certain immovable constants (budget, stock, preferences, importance, etc) I think we also need to verify our concepts of cheap as none of the figures mentioned in this thread are cheap...right? 

 

I am guessing true Kiyomaro twin daisho will be in the millions of USD ?



#23 Rivkin

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:02 PM

A personal ignorant and erroneous take: Kiyomaro's work has a lot of variation to it.

There is also a very significant "signature premium" to his works which will accordingly depend on the exact signature in question and even more so on its absence. 

There are plenty of other smiths who have even greater difference between their best and worst works. Shinto period is ripe with examples where average daito from Mishina or even shodai Yasutsugu against some tanto they made as custom order will have little in common. Drastically different quality of hada. 

 

But Shizu is 100% a different issue. Enormous number of existing swords, that got grouped together by later dealers and assigned a (related) name so that buyers feel proud they own something made by "Masamune's student". Likely in reality made by at least a dozen different (but related) Masters from roughly the same period and roughly the same time. This is why we have so many "Kaneuji" or "Hasebe school" or "Nobukuni", but so few Zo, o-Kanemitsu, Yasutsuna or Chogi. It's not lazyness or "they were all destroyed by Mongols". Even later, Hankei, Horikawa, Kotetsu, Nosada etc. ad infinitum left us far fewer works than this workaholic "Kaneuji". Because they were individual smiths that each worked with a small team - and not some Kinai area Nambokucho period factories, one of which we choose to prescribe today as a single "Masamune's student".

 

The difference is very pronounced when looking at sales in Japan. Every month very likely there is going to be one pre-Muromachi Kaneuji sold somewhere. About the same number per year as ko-Uda or Yamato Tegai, maybe a little more, maybe a little less - hard to say, but the numbers are comparable to any major school-wide attribution for the period.

 

And then take some popular Osafune Master who actually signed his works - and you'll see his blades maybe once-twice a year. That's basically the same for most individual smiths - 1-2 offers per year is normal for someone who was actually famous and did make a lot of blades.

 

Kirill R.



#24 Prewar70

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 11:14 PM

I too have a Kunisada that is described as Inoue Shinkai and I am guilty of saying that too. But there is an absolute distinction in price where even Daisaku Inoue Shinkai are in the 20-40k+ range and Inoue Shinkai (works attributed to his peak) are in the 65-100k+ ranges. It plainly speaks to the quality of his work at that time. But there are so many variables that also need to be taken into account. Assume that the collection has a direction, within this direction there is a budget applied and allocating this budget wisely also makes sense. If having an Osaka smith or smiths is the goal then perhaps one would rather hold out for Tsuda Sukehiro, maybe other features are more important, etc. This is a personal preference distinguished by certain immovable constants (budget, stock, preferences, importance, etc) I think we also need to verify our concepts of cheap as none of the figures mentioned in this thread are cheap...right? 

 

I am guessing true Kiyomaro twin daisho will be in the millions of USD ?

 

Seems like this is a perfect example of what you and Ray are talking about as well as an illustration of what Darcy explains.

 

https://www.aoijapan...-inoue-shinkai/


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#25 Rayhan

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:12 AM

I have seen many, many dealers do the same thing

https://nihontoantiq...nisada-fss-816/

Simple fact is that Inoue Shinkai did sign Kunisada in the beginning of his career but learning would let a collector understand there is a quality jump from Inoue Kunisada to Inoue Shinkai

#26 Jacques D.

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:54 AM

What about this one ?  who is the most priced, Tadayoshi or Tadahiro ?

 

https://yuhindo.com/hizen-tadayoshi/



#27 Rayhan

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:32 PM

What about this one ? who is the most priced, Tadayoshi or Tadahiro ?

https://yuhindo.com/hizen-tadayoshi/


I would think 5 symbol Tadayoshi is quite highly coveted but the sword on Darcy's page is a textbook example of excellent shodai work

#28 Kanenaga

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:03 AM

Asking price for the Masayuki daisho at DTI:  80M yen.


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#29 Vermithrax16

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 05:13 AM

Along these lines, a Tsuda Sukehiro (price is you have to ask):

http://world.seiyudo...duct/ka-100518/

 

Away from these lines, and a Darcy input would be appreciated, a Juyo Yoshimichi that is a great example of the smith, but unless it's got an unreal history in how it was passed down through time, I mean, it's Yoshimichi:

http://world.seiyudo...duct/ka-100418/


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#30 Gakusee

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 02:31 PM

Shono san / Seiyudo is known for pricing his items a bit too richly. I would say at least 20-25% higher than market from my observations in his shop, at the DTI and elsewhere. So, you need to take that into account when you view items on the Seiyudo website. Otherwise, he has some great things indeed
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