Copper Tsuba, Is It Real?

[Stone8]

I recently purchased a tsuba at an Ebay auction... it was supposed to be a middle-Edo piece, but later on I found a reproduction of the same from another seller, with less detail, for about 450 dollars. It had a different patination but exactly the same design.

 

My fear is that it can be a common Chinese-made tsuba, but it doesn’t look cast... that doesn’t mean anything, though.

 

Any comments? Thanks!

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/fc/b6/f3fcb659c9d0140ec4e12959be00112f.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/eb/9b/56/eb9b569e57403b44c93ee41c96b9e642.jpg

This is the original photo of my tsuba on Ebay... now these are photos of the “reproduction” on Ebay:

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/5c/ef/575cef9962c3a8c7255cb89ba39f2e1d.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/30/7e/59307e3ceff11a7c6155cb5b23830a83.jpg

[Tanto54]

Yes, sorry to bring bad news, but both appear to be cast.

[ROKUJURO]

Both bad industrially made decoration pieces. Value: $ 5.--, if someone really, really wanted them.

[Blazeaglory]

Well great thing about eBay is you can return "if not as described" within 30 days (and not known to many people get a refund from PayPal within 6 months)

 

So run run run back to seller and talk it out with him/her and see if the listing was misleading or confusing in any way. Sometimes sellers do everything they can to make an item seem legit and old but then they put the correct info in "details" and try to point to that as proof. But in reality you just gotta be careful.

 

Best thing to do is check here first before buying anywhere. There's allot of stuff coming out of China nowadays.

 

Good luck!

[Stone8]

Well great thing about eBay is you can return "if not as described" within 30 days (and not known to many people get a refund from PayPal within 6 months)

 

So run run run back to seller and talk it out with him/her and see if the listing was misleading or confusing in any way. Sometimes sellers do everything they can to make an item seem legit and old but then they put the correct info in "details" and try to point to that as proof. But in reality you just gotta be careful.

 

Best thing to do is check here first before buying anywhere. There's allot of stuff coming out of China nowadays.

 

Good luck!

The interesting part is that both come out of Japan, not China, from reputed sellers... the second listing was taken off once I let the seller know that it was a copy and not an original.

 

Thanks for all the help!! I think I’ll hang on to mine as it wasn’t that expensive at the end of the auction (shipping to Japan isn’t worth my while $$$).

 

I’ll make it a point to check here first; I’m trying to get antique koshirae for a katana in shirasaya, but it is difficult to sort through all the listings and get something worthwhile at a reasonable price.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Welcome to the forum. Please sign your first name to all posts, per Brian's rules, & so we know how to address you.

 

eBay is a good source of bargains IF you really know what you are doing. NMB is the place to get that knowledge, but it doesn't come automatically, or quickly, so caveat emptor.

[Stone8]

Welcome to the forum. Please sign your first name to all posts, per Brian's rules, & so we know how to address you.

 

eBay is a good source of bargains IF you really know what you are doing. NMB is the place to get that knowledge, but it doesn't come automatically, or quickly, so caveat emptor.

It’s Guillermo, hi everyone!! (Bill works fine also...)

I’ll try to have patience and be more cautious next time.

By the way, pine trees are appealing for me as a theme for this sword’s koshirae... in your experience, is it as common a theme as say, plum trees?

[Stone8]

Both bad industrially made decoration pieces. Value: $ 5.--, if someone really, really wanted them.

Thanks for the experience!! For educational purposes, though... how can you tell it was cast? Even if it is a dumb question, I really would like to know.

 

I took a recent picture after rubbing off some greenish mould buildup with WD-40 and a soft cloth, and rubbing of part of the blackish “patina”... My eyes are untrained, but I can distinctly see file markings on the edge and chisel marks on the surface of the trunk and on the outline of the vines.

 

If you could so kindly help me out with this... I am contacting the seller as I make this post, to let him know of the state of things with this particular tsuba.

[vajo]

Hello Guillermo

rubbing of the patina to take a view on the naked plate is very strange.

 

Please make some sharp pictures from your tsuba. I can see nothing on your photos. No one can judge a real tsuba from a cast on blurred pictures. 

[Stone8]

Hello Guillermo

rubbing of the patina to take a view on the naked plate is very strange.

 

Please make some sharp pictures from your tsuba. I can see nothing on your photos. No one can judge a real tsuba from a cast on blurred pictures.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/92/4e/c8924eb1e6ca8aa44b46b677cfdadfcd.jpg

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/56/e9/2456e9fb5af579078498497fd4a4e20c.jpg

As requested... if you need additional views, please ask and I will send them right away.

Thanks!!

[Stone8]

“vajo, on 29 Oct 2018 - 02:49 AM, said:

Hello Guillermo

rubbing of the patina to take a view on the naked plate is very strange.”

 

I was not trying to rub off the patina, but clean off the green mould. I succeeded in that, but rather clumsily as some of the black came off as well.

Thank goodness the general opinion is it’s trash, so at least I didn’t damage an original antique with my folly... which would be really depressing.

[Blazeaglory]

 

The interesting part is that both come out of Japan, not China, from reputed sellers... the second listing was taken off once I let the seller know that it was a copy and not an original.

 

Thanks for all the help!! I think I’ll hang on to mine as it wasn’t that expensive at the end of the auction (shipping to Japan isn’t worth my while $$$).

 

I’ll make it a point to check here first; I’m trying to get antique koshirae for a katana in shirasaya, but it is difficult to sort through all the listings and get something worthwhile at a reasonable price.

Ill send you a PM with some trusted sellers I've been buying from for a long time. Check your PM later. I'll send after work.

 

I've been seeing allot of youngsters from Japan selling Chinese imports lately. I'm not saying its one of your sellers but a couple I have viewed lately have some questionable items.

 

I always check their other items as well. If I notice a bunch of different types of items (mostly new items or mainstream stuff or have nothing to do with antiques or actual Nihonto) but then a few "newer" looking "vintage" items, to me that's a red flag.

 

I have allot of Chinese sellers that I buy some particular items from, so I see allot of the reproductions they have and can spot them from a few Japanese sellers as well.. I think they caught on to the "from Japan so must be Japanese" deal, which makes other more reputable Japanese sellers suffer as well.

 

Just gotta be careful!

[kissakai]

Hi Dwain

I'd be interested in a list so can you copy me in?

I only have one dealer I have used a few times

 

 

Grev

[vajo]

Guillermo for me it is cast. Sorry.

[ROKUJURO]

Thanks for the experience!! For educational purposes, though... how can you tell it was cast?.....If you could so kindly help me out with this... .

Guillermo,

 

when you have looked at a few hundred TSUBA you can spot the fakes at once. There is not much on your TSUBA that could erroneously be taken for genuine, be that the rounded outlines of the design elements, the shape of the NAKAGO-ANA or the look of the basic metal plate. Diecasting can produce quite good results if the original and the mold are well made and not used too often. This seems not to be the case here.

 

There is nothing wrong with these TSUBA-like items if you buy them as such for the price they are sold in Japanese souvenir shops, but even the TSUBA for blunt IAITO are often better.   

[Blazeaglory]

Sorry not trying to steal the thread here but I dont know much about tsuba, so my replies are mostly towards referencing the ebay sale... but as for the question...

 

How was a real Nihonto tsuba made? Not cast but actually carved and hammered/forged from copper (or other metals in some cases)? If cast it means modern?

 

Could this maybe be a newer Japanese cast or always Chinese?

[Stephen]

 

D wayn enjoy

[TETSUGENDO]

If the videos kindly presented by Stephen leave you wanting more, additional videos are available on Youtube and Vimeo,  enter 'Ford Hallam' in the search bar and enjoy.

 

-S-

[Blazeaglory]

Amazing!

 

 

Also, OP, check here first in the for sale area for tsuba because many members have great deals as well!

[Stone8]

Thank you very much for all the advice and encouragement... I will start searching for books with good pictures of tosogu so I will have a working knowledge of the real thing before I start treasure-hunting on eBay again.

 

Dwain, I’ll check your PM for that list; I sure would like to have some idea in whom I can trust when buying antiques... as you say, almost everyone out there flashes “Japan” and “Edo”, and it is difficult to tell what’s real and what’s been left to rust under the porch.

[Bugyotsuji]

If I can get a picture up here is a tsuba for discussion.

真鍮 Shinchu. It seems to be of some age, but may have been exposed to fire; part of the rim at top is black. 7.3 cm x 6.5 cm. Thick in the hand but of uneven thickness, perhaps thicker at the seppa dai. Notice the burr has not been completely removed. Why? The surface workings are said to be from the mold and not made later by hand.

Bought in Tsuyama, but differs somewhat from the traditional Tsuru-no-Maru of the Mori family.

Oh, and no, it did not break the bank.

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Piers,

 

Variant on a theme?  Ignoring its unfinished state, from the form of the seppadai and ryo-hitsu the work doe not appear to be that of a professional Tosogu-shi. Perhaps it is more of a charm or talisman, a touchstone with the historic past produced by a mirror maker or other producer of smaller cast brass/bronze objects.  I think one can appreciate it more by envisioning it in its finished/intended form.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[Alan Morton]

These brass Tsuba have been around since I first started collecting in the 70’s

They were always on gunto or other variations of Second World War swords

I’ve alway thought of them as genuine but not old.

Alan

[Bugyotsuji]

Steven, Alan, thanks for your thoughts. They have expanded my little bubble. The gunto suggestion makes sense.

It was bent when I found it as though forced from the middle out, and everyone said I was crazy to buy it. Despite the derision, I took it home and taking the risk hammered it relatively flat with a rubber hammer. I thought it was copper, but someone I respect kept telling me it was Shinchu. Perhaps copper-heavy with a sprinkling of impurities, then.(?) Would copper have been more available than other materials during WWII, I wonder? Anyway, I still like it, and as I said in the car on the way home, it can be finished off, or cut up and used for parts/repairs, etc. 101 useful things to do with it!!!

[Vermithrax16]

How in the %$%% did I not ever see that Hallam Katsuhira Tiger video????

 

Thanks Stephen!

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed, wonderful work, simply fascinating to watch. The video record is excellent too, sadly though jumping here and there!

Waiting for the Director's cut. 

[TETSUGENDO]

Piers,

 

Don't know about the Gunto connection, wouldn't the hole for the catch have been part of the design?  As for the copper look, if it was in a fire that would explain the 'rosy' coloring.  "Cut up and used for parts"....please no!   It's not a Natsuo, but a death sentence seems harsh....

 

Cheers,

     -S-

[Marius]

By the way, pine trees are appealing for me as a theme for this sword’s koshirae... in your experience, is it as common a theme as say, plum trees?

 

 

That is the joy of starting with fittings and then diving deeper and deeper into Japanese history, art and culture. To answer your question - yes, pine trees are a common motif. Look up Hasegawa Tohaku Shōrin-zu byōbu (a masterpiece). 

 

As for tsuba, here are a few examples from Aoi Art:

https://www.aoijapan.com/daisho-tsuba-mumeiunsigned-matsu-tree/

https://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-pine-tree/

https://www.aoijapan.com/kozukaogawa-yoshitunekao-pine-tree/

https://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-aizu-shoami-raptor-on-the-pine-tree/

https://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-unsigned-pine-tree-and-the-moon/

https://www.aoijapan.com/kozuka-mumeiunsigned-pine-tree-and-crane/