Recent Find Edo Wakizashi

[PNSSHOGUN]

Japanese dealers are regularly and reliably letting National Treasures go for pennies on the dollar on ebay, why just a few hours past we had three of the most famous smiths in history at bargain basement prices, a veritable closing down rug sale of Masterpieces. Meanwhile us suckers with our books and reputable dealers are paying out the nose for NBTHK papered swords like idiots, knowing exactly what we have, our excitement and enjoyment levels up there with coma patients or professional paint drying spectators.

 

The real collectors, the mavericks and the rebels are out on the mean streets of ebay, pulling out Meito, Kokuho and Daimyo swords up like change on the sidewalk. All the time us idiots are quietly sitting here with our thumbs up our proverbials selling off our vital organs for humdrum "papered" swords, nervously checking the spot price for scrap iron because that's all we seem have in the eyes of the True Collectors. 

[Guest Rayhan]

What is a "true collector"?

[Brian]

Anyone who collects for enjoyment instead of pure financial gain?

[SAS]

I believe John is giving us an example of Australian sarcasm, or "taking the piss" as they say.

[Guest Rayhan]

Lol

[Blazeaglory]

Jean,

 

Part of Aoi's description of this sword reads:

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... this blade seems to be forged in Muromachi period. In nakago there is a Kiritsuke Mei.

That mentioned “Fujie Kiyomitsu scoured the Togidamari part of Nakago”.

Fujie Seijiro Kiyomitsu is a metalworker of Kaga province.

He was active at the end of Edo period.

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Unless I'm missing something (sometimes I can't see the Wood for the Trees!!!) I take it that "scoured" means the nakago ura was re-filed in late Edo for some reason. So the ura yasurime are indeed late Edo and not Muromachi???!!! So far from "They look fresh and could be shinshinto" they ARE fresh and ARE shinshinto...

 

BaZZa.

File marks are fresh (shinshinto) but it's still a koto nakago correct? That's what I gathered from the info.

[Blazeaglory]

Japanese dealers are regularly and reliably letting National Treasures go for pennies on the dollar on ebay, why just a few hours past we had three of the most famous smiths in history at bargain basement prices, a veritable closing down rug sale of Masterpieces. Meanwhile us suckers with our books and reputable dealers are paying out the nose for NBTHK papered swords like idiots, knowing exactly what we have, our excitement and enjoyment levels up there with coma patients or professional paint drying spectators.

 

The real collectors, the mavericks and the rebels are out on the mean streets of ebay, pulling out Meito, Kokuho and Daimyo swords up like change on the sidewalk. All the time us idiots are quietly sitting here with our thumbs up our proverbials selling off our vital organs for humdrum "papered" swords, nervously checking the spot price for scrap iron because that's all we seem have in the eyes of the True Collectors.

Never said anything about national treasures... See where your mind goes? God forbid a person can find some O suriage Wakizashi or a decent ubu Wakizashi from a good smith or school without relying on papers and signatures...I mean its just so unheard of right? Also, it's not only eBay. I am always searching estate sales and have ads out looking for certain items including Nihonto. EBay is mostly over priced CRAP but once every so often a nice blade slips through. In this case I feel it was worth every penny (considering the shirasaya and polish alonefar outweigh the price I paid)

 

Don't get upset because you have to pay 10s of thousands to have a decent blade. And that's fine, I would do the same thing if I found a great blade I really wanted. I understand not everyone can wade through hundreds of crappy Nihonto to find some decent ones or diamonds in the rough. Not everyone is born with such skills. Most need a paper and signature to sooth their nerves. I get it and have nothing against it. I would never use that as info just to insult someone. We're all in the same game. To find the good ones. Not everyone can be the Indiana Jones of Nihonto collecting like me. It's a burden I must carry all my own.

 

Like I said I've been looking all year and last 6 months ive been looking to buy. Within the last 3 months ive separated the "no's" from the "maybes". Out of hundreds I found 3. Two of those I bought and the other was sold before I could buy it (it was a really nice and possibly early shobu zukuri that was pretty much spotless with 27 viewers that sold for less than 700$) .

 

Anyways I know now that some of you just can't get passed your (seeming) jealousy and insecurity, which is fine and not meant as an insult but please don't take it out on me. I promise not to bring it up again or spaz post. And one day I'll buy a ubu signed piece just as homage to all of you "connesours". Until then, smoke the peace pipe and let's all appreciate Nihonto in our own way.

 

Love you guys. You complete me..lol

[Jean]

No, it is not a koto nakago, it is a Bizen nakago

[Guest Rayhan]

Bizen Nakago for sure, i thought Mizuta previously but it is less pronounced.

[Blazeaglory]

Bizen Nakago for sure, i thought Mizuta previously but it is less pronounced.

Ok we're talking about the link you quoted now correct? I thought it was a koto blade that had yasurime added (or touched up) during shinshinto era?

 

You're saying the entire blade and nakago is shinshinto?

 

If you couldn't tell before, I'm confused. Why would AOI mention Kamakura or Muromachi (or whatever) ? I'm searching Bizen nakago but I'm still confused.

 

Please no jokes and don't rub it in. Just explain to me like I'm an innocent child or adult named Mongo. Thanks

[Guest Rayhan]

Dear Dwain

 

I will try to explain and hope it is what you are trying for:

 

You have posted the Nakago of a Mumei blade and asked for Kantei and age verification based on the Nakago and some pictures of the Nagasa and Sugata. Perfectly reasonable (if done with good pictures) 

 

This is an insert from a book showing the Nakago shapes:

 

 

Age:

The age of a sword with Ubu nakago and or Mumei is always a difficult assumption because if we are basing everything on the Sugata, this could be deceptive if it is an Utsuishi (commemorative copy) of an older (Koto) blade by a Shinto or ShinShinto smith. Therefore we will look at a lot more features to determine age, one of these many features can be the Nakago and the Nakago patina. The patina on your sword pictured lends to Shinto and I feel perhaps mid 18^th Century. The sword Nakago and the Nagasa are the same age, the file marks are original to the sword as the patina tells us so. If it were a koto sword with file marks added later then it would show in patination.

 

Shape of the Nakago

 

The Nakago shape and file marks are as individual to a sword as the Jigane and the Hamon, it should be viewed as a critical feature of Japanese swords as they point to the tradition or in cases even the school that made the sword. For example Gohei Gata was done by Kuniteru from Osaka in the early Edo period. Sotoba is a classical feature of the Kongo Byoe school, Kurijiri is found on Oei Bizen blades that is why we are saying it is a Bizen Nakago as it has that profile but the age period is still Edo. From the angle I saw first it looked to be Haagari so I thought maybe Mizuta Shinto school.

 

The file marks are also indicative of the school as certain strokes are done by individual schools

 

Please buy the Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords and read these sections too. I think it will really help. 

 

On Mumei swords:

 

You should avoid buying Mumei Shinto (and onward) swords as they will teach you very little 

 

 

 

[Blazeaglory]

Dear Dwain

 

I will try to explain and hope it is what you are trying for:

 

You have posted the Nakago of a Mumei blade and asked for Kantei and age verification based on the Nakago and some pictures of the Nagasa and Sugata. Perfectly reasonable (if done with good pictures)

 

This is an insert from a book showing the Nakago shapes:

 

Nakago text.jpg

 

Age:

The age of a sword with Ubu nakago and or Mumei is always a difficult assumption because if we are basing everything on the Sugata, this could be deceptive if it is an Utsuishi (commemorative copy) of an older (Koto) blade by a Shinto or ShinShinto smith. Therefore we will look at a lot more features to determine age, one of these many features can be the Nakago and the Nakago patina. The patina on your sword pictured lends to Shinto and I feel perhaps mid 18^th Century. The sword Nakago and the Nagasa are the same age, the file marks are original to the sword as the patina tells us so. If it were a koto sword with file marks added later then it would show in patination.

 

Shape of the Nakago

 

The Nakago shape and file marks are as individual to a sword as the Jigane and the Hamon, it should be viewed as a critical feature of Japanese swords as they point to the tradition or in cases even the school that made the sword. For example Gohei Gata was done by Kuniteru from Osaka in the early Edo period. Sotoba is a classical feature of the Kongo Byoe school, Kurijiri is found on Oei Bizen blades that is why we are saying it is a Bizen Nakago as it has that profile but the age period is still Edo. From the angle I saw first it looked to be Haagari so I thought maybe Mizuta Shinto school.

 

The file marks are also indicative of the school as certain strokes are done by individual schools

 

Please buy the Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords and read these sections too. I think it will really help.

 

On Mumei swords:

 

You should avoid buying Mumei Shinto (and onward) swords as they will teach you very little

Thank you.

 

Yes I agree and I thought we were talking about your first quote in regards to a different nakago. So now that I know you're referring to my blade, I understand.

 

I agree that this blade that I've pictured is a Shinto. Personally I feel it could be mid 17th century to mid 18th century. Usually I stick with Koto but this one grabbed my attention due to the bohi and extreme sugata. I have the connesiours book and I think that it's probably the best investment I've made. I sleep with it next to my bed, fall asleep reading and wake up reading ..lol

 

I really wish I could show this blade in person. The lines are almost perfect in relation to the overall structure. No rust although It's a little tired with some ware, but overall it's in great condition. Its also super sharp (almost as sharp as my "Mino" Waki). I was leaning towards Soshu den but is it true that Bizen was a strong influence for Soshu smiths? Also there are no Soshu smiths after Koto correct? I can see some aspects of Mizuta but overall I keep coming back to Kotetsu school... But really the pics I posted don't show all the detail that I see in hand. My camera doesn't want to focus when I want it to, so pics turn out crap .

 

Anyways, thanks for the detailed response. If I've offended anyone with prior posts (in general not my direct response "defensive" comeback posts), I'm sorry. Sometimes I misinterpret what others say due to past experiences and general upbringing. But in reality I'm just more offended by insults towards my Nihonto than insults towards me????????