Recent Find Edo Wakizashi

[Blazeaglory]

What does this say to you? Era? Den? Im not asking for a full report but lets see what ya got!

EDIT:Added more pics including sugata and other side of nakago

[vajo]

Mumei Wakizashi Blade with Hi. Late Shinto or Shin-Shinto. 

[Blazeaglory]

Mumei Wakizashi Blade with Hi. Late Shinto or Shin-Shinto. 

 

Hmm. I was thinking early or mid Shinto. But its definitely Shinto.

 

Also, is Hi aftermarket or original? Its quite well done but Ive never seen one end so abruptly (high up on Nakago) without being rounded. Usually this type of Hi runs the length of the Nakago no?

 

Ill post a full pic after others opinions. If there are others that is lol

[Geraint]

"Mumei", bold call Chris.

 

"Hi after market or original", Nakamura suggest all hi are ato bori in the sense that they are added after the sword is otherwise made.  How would you expect to tell from one limited image?

"Never seen one end so abruptly",  quite common, check this out, https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashikanenori/  

Sugata gets you to age much more than nakago condition and again, one limited image.

 

Hope that helps.

[Jean]

Impossible to say if the blade is mumei or not because it is the opposite side of the mei (if there is one or not) which is pictured.

 

Now, we can say it is mumei, otherwise Dwain won’t have posted it for information.

 

Impossible to date it from this picture.

 

Now even dating a shinto from shinshinto wakizashi from sugata can be very tricky....

[Alex A]

What does this say to you? Era? Den? Im not asking for a full report but lets see what ya got!

Errr, struggling here Dwain. Best I can do is speculate about the nakago-ana being enlarged at a later date.

 

Maybe you could narrow it down a LITTLE by looking at the shape of the nakago, file marks. Have fun.

[Jean]

I am posting this just to draw the attention on the yasurime and the danger on dating a blade by them.

 

This is an Eikyo Bizen wakizashi. Look at the ura side, forget the date and the kiritsuke mei. Concentrate on the yasurime. They look fresh and could be shinshinto, the blade is koto.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-norimitsueiroku-4-nen-2-gatsu-hi-kiritsuke-mei/

 

 

To sum up, nothing can be kanteied from this nakago.

[SAS]

OP: it's a swoard!

[Blazeaglory]

Mumei. I was thinking early Shinto?

 

 

Images are a little dark. Sugata and other side of nakago(close up)

[Blazeaglory]

"Mumei", bold call Chris.

 

"Hi after market or original", Nakamura suggest all hi are ato bori in the sense that they are added after the sword is otherwise made. How would you expect to tell from one limited image?

"Never seen one end so abruptly", quite common, check this out, https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashikanenori/

Sugata gets you to age much more than nakago condition and again, one limited image.

 

Hope that helps.

Hello Geraint and thanks for the response!

 

The image you link to has longer hi and is what I referred to as in the post above as "runs the length" but I guess I should have been more specific. The blade in OP ends under hibaki. Linked sword in your post, the hi ends halfway down nakago.

 

So it seems in Kantei the little things matter? But not in case of different length bohi? I think that's what I was truly wondering.

 

I understand that all hi are technically added after the sword is made, that makes good sense. What I was asking is if it was added by the actual original smith or at a later date by another? But i think that might be impossible to tell?

[Blazeaglory]

I am posting this just to draw the attention on the yasurime and the danger on dating a blade by them.

 

This is an Eikyo Bizen wakizashi. Look at the ura side, forget the date and the kiritsuke mei. Concentrate on the yasurime. They look fresh and could be shinshinto, the blade is koto.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-norimitsueiroku-4-nen-2-gatsu-hi-kiritsuke-mei/

 

 

To sum up, nothing can be kanteied from this nakago.

Yah I know I was just trying to have some fun with it to see what kind of answers we'd get.

 

When I get the blade in hand I'll take better pics and post them here.

 

And thanks everyone for playing along. Good conversations come out of little things!

[Blazeaglory]

OP: it's a swoard!

Is that a new jersey accent? Lol

[Greg F]

I have a katana with the same bohi end in the same place.

 

Greg

[Blazeaglory]

I have a katana with the same bohi end in the same place.

 

Greg

Thanks! Any other similarities or no? This type of bohi ending is common across many different schools you think?

 

I guess the reason I'm so obsessed is that in the connesiours book, there's many different combinations that refer to many different smiths. But the "shape" of my ending is different from the one in the book that ends "abruptly" while it is the same shape as the one that carries on further down the nakago. So it's a tad confusing as to which one I should be referencing. Because both references have very different results.

 

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs but I just wanna be on the correct track and seeking information. Sorry if I'm bugging sometimes????

[Greg F]

Dwain i wouldnt read too much into the bohi ending.

Mine is on a mumei sword from last 20 years.

 

Greg

[Guest Rayhan]

Shinto, Mizuta maybe?

[Blazeaglory]

Shinto, Mizuta maybe?

Thanks ill check that out????

[Blazeaglory]

Here's the "nakago only" Wakizashi next to the Osuriage "Kanemoto" (reference only)

 

Huge difference in sugata.

[Blazeaglory]

Sorry If Im offending anyone, but you think this could belong to the Kagemitsu school? Or you think this particular blade is too "young"??

Looks to be made in the Bizen (or similar influence?) style as some have said. I'm incline to agree but mention Shitahara school as a candidate. Also, as Jean said, dating from the nakago alone is tough because for me as a rookie, sometimes It looks "newer" (meaning early/mid Edo) but yet for some reason appears to possibly look older due to little things such as a possibly chiseled nakago-ana or the different stages of patina/pitting and looks in different light/angles.

Anyways, I appreciate the info. Ill give it a rest now. Im just bored and excited and thought Id post some better pics with better light for everyone. Thanks all.

[Blazeaglory]

Sorry If Im offending anyone, but you think this could belong to the Kagemitsu school? Or you think this particular blade is too "young"??

 

EDIT: The more i look at the Hamon of this blade, it starting to resemble yamashiro and Soshu tradition IMO, possibly trying to emulate their founders work? But boshi constantly brings me back to Kotetsu (Kotetsu hamon is quite similar too). Also, as Jean said, dating from the nakago alone is tough because for me as a rookie, sometimes It looks "newer" (meaning early/mid Edo) but yet for some reason appears to possibly look older due to little things such as a possibly chiseled nakago-ana or the different stages of patina/pitting and looks in different light/angles.

 

Anyways, I appreciate the info. Ill give it a rest now. Im just bored and excited and thought Id post some better pics with better light for everyone. Thanks all.

Oops tried to edit and accidentally qouted????

 

The edit is noted above plus I was going to add these pics for posterity????????

 

(Thanks to Mark Seskos Kantei eReference for comparison)

[Bazza]

I am posting this just to draw the attention on the yasurime and the danger on dating a blade by them.

 

This is an Eikyo Bizen wakizashi. Look at the ura side, forget the date and the kiritsuke mei. Concentrate on the yasurime. They look fresh and could be shinshinto, the blade is koto.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bizen-osafune-norimitsueiroku-4-nen-2-gatsu-hi-kiritsuke-mei/

 

 

To sum up, nothing can be kanteied from this nakago.

Jean,

 

Part of Aoi's description of this sword reads:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

... this blade seems to be forged in Muromachi period. In nakago there is a Kiritsuke Mei.

That mentioned “Fujie Kiyomitsu scoured the Togidamari part of Nakago”.

Fujie Seijiro Kiyomitsu is a metalworker of Kaga province.

He was active at the end of Edo period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless I'm missing something (sometimes I can't see the Wood for the Trees!!!) I take it that "scoured" means the nakago ura was re-filed in late Edo for some reason.  So the ura yasurime are indeed late Edo and not Muromachi???!!!  So far from "They look fresh and could be shinshinto" they ARE fresh and ARE shinshinto...

 

BaZZa.

[Jean]

That’s what I was aiming at BaZZa

[Bazza]

Why do I feel a big DOH!! coming on...

 

BaZZa.

[Blazeaglory]

Why would a smith do that? Just felt like freshening up an old nakago? Haha I understood what Jean was saying, I was just giving my reasons for thinking the nakago could be older. I'm thinking early Edo?

 

This nakago yasurime looks to be sujikai? Does not look shinshinto tho I'm 99% sure of that. I'll refer you to Gandalf from lord of the rings in regards to shinshinto coming into this house????

[Jean]

I have noticed that Oei Bizen nakago are not often in great shape.

 

My Yasumisu tachi, look at the yasurime

[Blazeaglory]

I have noticed that Oei Bizen nakago are not often in great shape.

 

My Yasumisu tachi, look at the yasurime

Yasurime looks similar? but that nakago looks allot older I would say

[Peter Bleed]

I feel like I have just listened to a group of sincere parishioners discuss the number of angels that can stand on the head of a pin. Is this what Japanese sword collecting has become?

Dwain,

you are clearly working hard and learning lots. But I respectfully suggest that you are looking in all the wrong places. You seem to be lavishing attention on potentially nice swords. Obviously, we all should alwasy look at everything. It is all right to look for under appreciated treasures. May I suggest that you might learn more - faster - by focusing on signed ubu blades.. Clearly you can generate discussion, but you - and WE - will make better progress if the questions addressed are likely to have a specific - and concrete - answer.

Peter

[Blazeaglory]

Aye aye aye. Thanks for that and I understand what you're saying and nothing personal but IT'S RANT TIME...

 

To me, your state of mind in that response misses the most of the point of collecting and care taking. If people didn't search out "garbage" blades, imagine how many great and possible treasures would be gone for eternity... Any person with money can own a papered ubu Nihonto from a well known smith but it takes guts and courage to wade through hundreds of "dead" Nihonto to find one or two worth saving and taking a gamble. Out of 2to3 months of looking to buy, I found 2 Wakizashi that I was willing to gamble on (to preserve and make new koshirae for) and one gimei that I bought for next to nothing so I can examine a fake in person. One of the two could possibly be an old Mino (Kanemoto). And this Wakazashi is very well made and looks so much better in hand. My phone focuses when it wants so when I do get good pics, i try to remember to share with you guys. But i guess i should also remember that allot of veterans have become jaded and easily upset by these "low budget" Nihonto and ramblers like me who like to push buttons or am scatter brained with my posts sometimes.

 

I paid $400 for this one. Thank you for the advice but how many ubu Nihonto with signatures can you get for under $500? I really am trying to listen but I have no problem with unsigned blades or o-suriage. Mainly because they are over looked by most "veteran" collectors and they are also diamonds in the rough and I like the mystery and possible history associated with them. A signed ubu is great but kinda takes away the mystique.

 

This is what I've heard from a few members here so far...

 

All nihonto are special (but only if they're ubu and have signature)

 

Feel free to discuss swords (but only in a prescribed brief rigid manner without smiling or enjoying ones self)

 

Share info (but be brief and don't try to deliver detailed information in anything other than kantei and even then keep it short lest someone misinterpret)

 

You can collect and appreciate whatever you want (but if it's unsigned or not ubu, it's garbage)

 

Be satisfied with what veteran members say (even tho many times the information is contradicting and in some cases hypocritical)

 

 

 

So God forbid I try to update and share new pictures or thought out open minded information. And quite frankly I'm tired of explaining myself. Nothing against you personally but I like looking at Nihonto with multiple pictures and when a member tries to update for better images.

 

And sorry for making you read such a long rant. But I'm tired of all the "don't buy this, buy that". Right now I don't want a perfect sword! I want unnoticed blades so I can appreciate every detail and flaw as to truly understand what perfection is from high ranking smiths. When I'm ready and know exactly what smith and school I want to spend thousands on, I will.

 

To quote someone I respect here , "if you've got an off button, PRESS IT!!!"

 

Well I'm pressing it. And FYI, I post these pics of these horrible mumei blades to share the multiple characteristics of each blade, to stimulate discussion and for posterity for future generations to explore.

 

With that I bid you all adieu...

 

[Bazza]

Another precious flower wilts...

 

BaZZa.

[Vermithrax16]

I like Dwain's posts and passion.

 

As a newer nihonto study collector I have been tempted by, and seen all the time, the attraction of trying to buy a $400 blade (or whatever the price) and have it turn out to be a priceless treasure.

 

I would reference Darcy's posts (so great to see him pop in every now and then) on the green paper issue.

 

If I could pass along any advice for newer nihonto folks:

- the field is populated with folks that are way more experienced and have seen literally thousands of more blades/listings/references than you.

- I was surprised to find they all scan the same cheap listings that many look at.

- the push to favor "completed swords", what I call DONE with papers, good polish, etc is so money is not spent on chasing. Spend a night or two in low light or candlelight with a well made sword, it's about the most fun thing you can do. One can learn a lot.

- Annoying when that desire to just have a relic in hand burns hot, but time and study will help you arrive at something you really want and will be happy about. When that happens, it's really a nice feeling.

 

Anyways, 

 

My 2 cents.