Greetings And Autumn Tsuba

[raynor]

Greetings all, new on the board and looking forward so bask and soak in people's knowledge!

 

I wonder if anyone can tell (or guess) anything about this tsuba? It's iron, supposedly pre 1800. Leaves has a nice autumn look.

About 2.6 inches/6.7cm wide, 2.8inches/7.2cm tall with no signature.

 

[MauroP]

秋草図 - akikusa no zu, Shōami (or Aizu-Shōami), mid to late Edo. Nice catch.

Mauro

[raynor]

Hi Mauro,

 

Thanks for the information. I'm very new to this, I come from Chinese martial arts background and am just learning about the Japanese swords after falling in love when studying how they were made and used compared to Chinese versions.

When I saw the metal inlay I knew I wanted to grab this tsuba.

 

Just curious, how did you know or find that information? Trying to learn 

[Stephen]

I guess I just can't shake this devil advocate hanging around my neck.

I get the feeling patina has been lost. May be its just the photos do they look gold in hand or brass? I keep seeing missing shakudo. I surely hope I'm wrong

[TETSUGENDO]

Stephen,

 

Could be or not, what's certain is at some point someone did a bit of over enthusiastic cleaning....the base metal of the inlay appears to be copper. Any intentional or long-time acquired patina seems lost.

 

-S-

[raynor]

Hi Stephen. There are one place I'm sure and another I can't tell if any of the inlay has been lost, see photo. Are you referring to something else?

 

As for the material it is difficult to pin down if it looks more bronze or gold to my eyes. Skakudo is the gold and copper alloy right? The inlay has a almost a organic autumn leaf color if that helps? Love how it looks in natural sunlight.

I'm out of town til around Halloween then I'll be able to put up photos not quite this bad, these are all from the ebay auction.

 

At 1 even my untrained eyes can tell a tip of grass is gone.

At 2 I'm not sure if something is gone that was attached, the round metal encircled does not look like a fresh break point, maybe just the shape of the big leaf's left top is putting me off.

At 3 I think a flower is somewhat eroded or banged (battle damage?   ) but I am honestly just guessing here. 

 

Certainly looks like this thing was used

 

 

Anything else anyone can tell me is welcome, tiny bit of metal but seemingly with a bit of a history.

 

edit

Now I think I get what you mean. I honestly cant tell if it was cleaned too well beforehand, I'm afraid I yet can not tell a horrible shakudo patina from an excellent one, complete novice.

If something is seriously wrong with it I dont mind too much. I got it for very cheap and can admire the work as it is, but as mentioned, I'm thirsty for any information people are willing to share.

[vajo]

Raynor make pictures without flash in natural light. The tsuba is dead flashed.

On the last side picture i see a deep brown patina it seems looking good. The application hast lost their silver gold shakudo gilding.

Late edo period my guess.

[raynor]

Raynor make pictures without flash in natural light. The tsuba is dead flashed.

Thanks Vajo. Will do when back home. I did not even know there was another missing layer to the inlay, silver and gold no less. From a collecting/value point I recon this is not a good thing? I am impressed Mauro is able to make a guess at the school even with no signature etc.

I still enjoy the piece even if it has lost its former glory past just passing of time, I had no idea this is apparently a tsuba of some quality. Would you say it's decent enough that I take it to someone with an actual idea to get it examined or even papered?

 

I mainly wanted an original appealing piece that was not a modern copy or low quality alloy piece.

[TETSUGENDO]

Hi Raynor,

Stephen is speculating on the original appearance/coloration of your tsuba, not calling attention to tiny bits of missing inlay.  Enjoy your tsuba as an authentic piece of history, as attractive as it is...... the expense of papering it outweighs any benefit.

 

-S-

[ROKUJURO]

RAYNOR,

welcome to the NM Board!

Is your TSUBA magnetic? To me it looks like iron, but that may be due to the photos (or my old eyes).

Please sign all posts with your first name plus an initial.  

[raynor]

Thanks Steven, I figured that out eventually. I am quite enjoying it, these ebay photos don't give the inlay justice. I'll put some new up when I can.

 

Thank you for the welcome Jean, I have not taken a magnet to the tsuba but very well might when back home. However I'm 99% sure it is iron.

 

So apparently the exposed inlay metal is copper? It's made to look more colorful then wrought or polished copper items I've seen before. I have seen detailed copper inlay used on sword scabbards before but not with a organic leaf like coloration like here.

I had no idea they used copper base under silver and gold if that is the case, but makes sense regarding material costs. I wonder how it could all come off without seemingly damaging the rest of the piece

[vajo]

Its not a bad tsuba Omar. Make some pictures in better light conditions and we will see good aged tsuba. 

Enjoy it.

[raynor]

Natural light as requested. It is quite similar to my other tsuba, which has has a bamboo basket and flower design in the same spaces as the leaves here. That one has clear gold and silver colors, where this one has no trace of it. If it was removed as some here suggested, I wonder how it could been removed this thoroughly.

 

[vajo]

Good pictures Omar.

On the last picture you see the black patination. Gold plating is visible. Hammered plate. Nice edo work.

[raynor]

Thanks Chris. So the tsuba was over zealously cleaned? Any gold is long gone, but is there anything I can do to help re patination or prevent rust from running rampant beyond storing it safely?

I imagine this looked quite nice when it was new, I'm a big fan of the plain dark shakudo with a single nature motif look.

[vajo]

The tsuba condition is good enough. Let it as it is. You can help the tsuba patination when you take a soft cotton with choji oil and oil the iron once a year very smooth.

[raynor]

Thank you for the tip Chris, will do. I wonder why someone would clean it so harshly as to remove all of the gilding from the leaves.

 

I picked up another tsuba for the price of a fast food meal on ebay to put on a practise sword, just to get something other then a common factory appearance to it. Upon arrival I was surprised that it appears rather old and with a (fake) patina? 

I am pretty sure it is a mass produced piece, as the gold paint is sloppy and there is cast marks visible in the nakago. Maybe an old mass production for tourists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MauroP]

No Omar, this one is not old. You can clearly see the seams of casting inside the hitsu-ana.

Bye, Mauro

[vajo]

As Mauro said, this is a fake tsuba.

You can see it too in the painted decoration.

[TETSUGENDO]

Omar your instincts are correct, as confirmed this tsuba is a modern reproduction.  Good thing is your definitely on the fast end of the learning curve, well done!

 

-S-

[raynor]

Thanks guys,

 

Yes knew it was a production piece for barely 20 dollar with the cast marks and sloppy paint, was just surprised in hand it looks better then expected with the rust and I presume fake patina. It is iron so better then zinc dingus for a practise sword

[raynor]

Hopefully not too much time has passed so that I am not necroposting here, but I will permit myself to sneak in another question or two.

 

Am I correct assuming that some parts of the inlay used for the first tsuba's leaf motif here is what one could call ten zogan, or raised dot inlay?

 

I'm also perplexed how whoever made this managed to add the tiny hairs visible on the stems without a microscope or modern tools, does anyone in the know care to share how this was done?

[TETSUGENDO]

Omar,

 

Eyeglasses, and the magnifying lens, have been in use in Japan since the 15th century.  Additionally, Myopia is common in Japan.

 

-S-

[raynor]

Magnifying lens, Myopia and lack of Roman noses considered, the work is still impressive 

[Tanto54]

Dear Omar,

 

With respect to the "tiny hairs" on the stems that you mentioned, would you point them out in one of the macro photos?  When I look at some of the pictures, I can see chisel marks that someone could mistake for "tiny hairs", but they are really just marks caused by the chisel tightening the base metal against the inlay.  If you watch Ford's video about making the Tiger Tsuba, you can see how the inlays are done and how these chisel marks could appear (i.e., your "tiny hairs" might not be an intentional part of the image - but Ford wouldn't leave them showing...). 

[raynor]

George,

 

That might be it, looking (even) closer those are indeed marks and not more inlay. I wonder if its intentional as they seem rather symmetric. The Japanese likes to not give up control of a process, or maybe this one was rushed out to someone running off to war