I Am Looking To Buy A Specific Type Of Nihonto.

[DoyleB]

Hello, I am putting the word out that I am looking to buy a specific type of sword.

I am looking for:

Tanto, papered -NBTHK, signed and DATED, old-pre 17^th century, in fittings or a least it has a saya and a tsuka.

All for under $2,500. I realize that for this price I will not be able to get a perfect blade, but I won’t be using it in battle. Next, I will find a wakizashi with the same requirements.  I you have one, or know anyone I can contact please let me know, and please keep my contact info, in case you come across something. Sorry for the long email.

 

Thanks

Doyle Barnett

Santa Barbara, California, USA

DoyleB@cox.net

(805) 453-8741

 

 

[Katsujinken]

These requirements are unrealistic if you’re looking for all at once. But you can get in the ballpark, sort of: https://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-bishu-osafune-morihisa/

[Ed]

Not a tanto, but how about a Daisho (Katana & Wakizashi) in koshirae.  $3900 for the pair, that's $1100 under budget. (does not include shipping)

 

http://yakiba.com/Daisho2_Sukesada-Masakiyo.htm

[DoyleB]

Not a tanto, but how about a Daisho (Katana & Wakizashi) in koshirae.  $3900 for the pair, that's $1100 under budget. (does not include shipping)

 

http://yakiba.com/Daisho2_Sukesada-Masakiyo.htm

Thanks for the offer, but I am looking for signed, dated, papered, and tanto.

[Ray Singer]

Doyle, your best bet is to look for a Sue-Bizen tanto. They are often signed and dated. You may, for example, find a Sukesada tanto with a late Muromachi date with Hozon or NTHK papers in shirasaya for around your budget. It may be a bit tired or of average quality, but meets your basic requirements. Other than that, as we have discussed offline, this is a very challenging ask.

[DoyleB]

These requirements are unrealistic if you’re looking for all at once. But you can get in the ballpark, sort of: https://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-bishu-osafune-morihisa/

thanks, yes I saw this one and I am temped. Actually, I have found a sword for $2,500 that meets all of the aforementioned requirements (that I may get) but I don't like the koshirae  very much.  I am new to sword collecting so my values are different than most of the collectors that I know.  I like old and used.

[DoyleB]

Doyle, your best bet is to look for a Sue-Bizen tanto. They are often signed and dated. You may, for example, find a Sukesada tanto with a late Muromachi date with Hozon or NTHK papers in shirasaya for around your budget. It may be a bit tired or of average quality, but meets your basic requirements. Other than that, as we have discussed offline, this is a very challenging ask.

Thanks, I will keep trying. As a beginner I see paying more for famous smiths about like my wife paying ungodly more for a purse because it have a prestigious label on it. I know my taste will change with education or if I buy just to resale.  Doyle

[Ray Singer]

Doyle, I am not at all referring to pursuing a famous swordsmith. Sue-Bizen is simply the most likely target to find a signed and dated koto tanto. The majority of koto blades are Bizen and most other schools didn't sign and date their work with the same frequency. Sukesada is not one particular smith, it is a lineage with a number of smiths using that name during Muromachi.

 

This is the type of item I am referring to (with the understanding that this specific tanto does not have kanteisho).

 

www.nihonto.us/BIZEN%20SUKESADA%20TANTO.htm

[Ken-Hawaii]

Doyle, it would help if you were willing to listen to Ray. You may WANT a signed/dated/papered tanto for under $2500, but if none are available in your price range, what do you plan to do?

 

A quality tanto generally sells for about the same as a quality katana. Few of them were dated, & the ones that are most likely to be dated are the Sue-Bizen, which is a school, not a smith. Sukesada is, as Ray said, not one smith, but a series of smiths who used the same name over a period of several centuries, & the name is definitely not considered as "famous."

 

With your lack of experience, are you aware that just because a blade is papered, the paper itself may not be valid, depending on which shinsa organization wrote it, & when? Related to that, do you have the expertise to recognize if a paper is actually for the blade it comes with? It's easy & cheap to buy a shinsa paper on eBay all by itself, & unless you can read Kanji, as well as very carefully comparing the image on the paper to the physical blade, scam sellers can give you a paper for a wakizashi that has no relation to the tanto in your hand. I've seen that happen several times.

 

May I suggest that you invest in a few books that will explain all this to you, before you buy a tanto, or anything else? For $100, you can buy three or four books on Amazon that will educate you on what our members are suggesting. Just do a quick search on NMB for a list of recommended titles.

 

The next time you want to buy a blade, I suggest that you post it in the appropriate thread, which is "Wanted to Buy."

[Alex A]

2 signed and dated late Muromachi tanto in shirasaya, with Hozen

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=TAN-0118

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=TAN-0116

 

Maybe put your own koshirae together at a later date ?

[lonely panet]

papered, mounted, polished and in shirasaya. but mumei and under 2k.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Big-Tanto-den-Owari-Seki-NBTHK-Hozon-paper-Aged-Koshirae-Saya-32-7cm/253897813671?hash=item3b1d7d2ea7:g:6qYAAOSw91hbS1wU

[mywei]

IMHO I think the requirements of tanto Signed+dated+koshirae+papered all <250,000 Yen is a pretty tall order even in the current market

 

good luck

 

edit: Closest one I found - http://nihontou.jp/choice03/toukenkobugu/tantou/131/00.html

Dated Meiji 2, Hozon, koshirae but 300,000 Yen

[Curran]

I recommend moving this to the:     -Wanted To Buy-    Section instead of -For Sale or Trade-.

[Ray Singer]

Perhaps you could give more information on why having a dated example is so crucial. If the smith is identifiable, then you will have a fairly good understanding of when the sword was made. In my opinion this is an example (now sold) of one of the better swords you could hope to find within your budget:

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as18207-%E7%9F%AD%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E7%9B%B8%E5%B7%9E%E4%BD%8F%E7%B6%B1%E5%BB%A3-tanto-soshu-ju-tsunahiro

 

There is no date, but you will not find a dated Sue-Soshu blade and something like this offers a lot to enjoy, both in terms of the blade and its koshirae.

[LakeBum]

I agree Ray, that is a great looking set.  Normally I don't like tanto koshirae, but that set speaks to me.

[Curran]

I recommend moving this to the:     -Wanted To Buy-    Section instead of -For Sale or Trade-.

 

Moderators, please move this one to appropriate section.

[DoyleB]

Doyle, I am not at all referring to pursuing a famous swordsmith. Sue-Bizen is simply the most likely target to find a signed and dated koto tanto. The majority of koto blades are Bizen and most other schools didn't sign and date their work with the same frequency. Sukesada is not one particular smith, it is a lineage with a number of smiths using that name during Muromachi.

 

This is the type of item I am referring to (with the understanding that this specific tanto does not have kanteisho).

 

www.nihonto.us/BIZEN%20SUKESADA%20TANTO.htm

Sorry, I want inferring that you were pursuing a famous smith. I have a Sukesada  and love it.

[DoyleB]

Moderators, please move this one to appropriate section.

thanks, I am still learning how to navivate this site. how do I get to it?

[DoyleB]

Perhaps you could give more information on why having a dated example is so crucial. If the smith is identifiable, then you will have a fairly good understanding of when the sword was made. In my opinion this is an example (now sold) of one of the better swords you could hope to find within your budget:

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as18207-%E7%9F%AD%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E7%9B%B8%E5%B7%9E%E4%BD%8F%E7%B6%B1%E5%BB%A3-tanto-soshu-ju-tsunahiro

 

There is no date, but you will not find a dated Sue-Soshu blade and something like this offers a lot to enjoy, both in terms of the blade and its koshirae.

Thanks Ray, I like dated the same way some collectors like signed. Two of my other swords are signed and dated. When I was just  beginning to collect I trusted a date that was carved in tohard steel more than a piece a paper. but now I want both. There are millions of blades out there. I figure my dated collection will be a little different. Thanks again. PS, the link you provide is to an auction. yikes for us beginners.

[Curran]

The Wanted to Buy section is the one immediately below the For Sale or Trade section.

It will require a moderator to move to the appropriate section. I figured let it slide a day, as they are usually lightening quick on catching these mistakes.

 

It isn't like much is coming up for sale currently, though a nice blade was just listed by Ed.

I was looking at Evan's listing this morning, but keep having to click past this erroneously placed one to get to it.

[Katsujinken]

Thanks Ray, I like dated the same way some collectors like signed. Two of my other swords are signed and dated. As a beginner at this I trusted a date that was carved in to a piece of steel more than a piece a paper. but now I want both. There are millions of blades out there. I figure my dated collection will be a little different. Thanks again.

Anybody can carve anything into steel, and to the untrained eye it all looks the same. We tell someone every week that their family heirloom is a Chinese fake.

 

And of course papers can be forged. This hobby isn’t for the faint of heart. :-)

 

Listen to Ray and also buy some books. Both those investments will save you money later.

[mywei]

Thanks Ray, I like dated the same way some collectors like signed. Two of my other swords are signed and dated. When I was just  beginning to collect I trusted a date that was carved in tohard steel more than a piece a paper. but now I want both. There are millions of blades out there. I figure my dated collection will be a little different. Thanks again. PS, the link you provide is to an auction. yikes for us beginners.

 

Nengo (dates) can be (and often are) faked with the rest of gimei signatures. 

 

+1 to books first mate

[Guest Rayhan]

Books first

[Ray Singer]

I know this is a bit over your budget but am sharing anyway. Ubu, signed, dated, shirasaya, koshirae and two sets of kanteisho.

 

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/swords/n119-papered-wakizashi-bizen-kiyomitsu-koshirae

 

 

 

Sorry, I want inferring that you were pursuing a famous smith. I have a Sukesada  and love it.

[DoyleB]

Doyle, it would help if you were willing to listen to Ray. You may WANT a signed/dated/papered tanto for under $2500, but if none are available in your price range, what do you plan to do?

 

A quality tanto generally sells for about the same as a quality katana. Few of them were dated, & the ones that are most likely to be dated are the Sue-Bizen, which is a school, not a smith. Sukesada is, as Ray said, not one smith, but a series of smiths who used the same name over a period of several centuries, & the name is definitely not considered as "famous."

 

With your lack of experience, are you aware that just because a blade is papered, the paper itself may not be valid, depending on which shinsa organization wrote it, & when? Related to that, do you have the expertise to recognize if a paper is actually for the blade it comes with? It's easy & cheap to buy a shinsa paper on eBay all by itself, & unless you can read Kanji, as well as very carefully comparing the image on the paper to the physical blade, scam sellers can give you a paper for a wakizashi that has no relation to the tanto in your hand. I've seen that happen several times.

 

May I suggest that you invest in a few books that will explain all this to you, before you buy a tanto, or anything else? For $100, you can buy three or four books on Amazon that will educate you on what our members are suggesting. Just do a quick search on NMB for a list of recommended titles.

 

The next time you want to buy a blade, I suggest that you post it in the appropriate thread, which is "Wanted to Buy."

Thanks for the advice. I  have a couple of mentors that I consult before I buy expensive stuff. As far a books go I read one and lots of Nihonto magazines, and hundreds of web pages, but most of it is just academic for me. thanks again.

[DoyleB]

I know this is a bit over your budget but am sharing anyway. Ubu, signed, dated, shirasaya, koshirae and two sets of kanteisho.

 

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/swords/n119-papered-wakizashi-bizen-kiyomitsu-koshirae

Thanks, I could do $3k but first I would like to find a tanto. I have a Waki, that is dated 1414 but it is unpapered. I bought a beautiful tanto at the SF show in August but Dave Easley said that the blade is only around 100 years old.

[mywei]

here you go http://www.e-sword.jp/tantou/1810-3030.htm

[DoyleB]

These requirements are unrealistic if you’re looking for all at once. But you can get in the ballpark, sort of: https://www.aoijapan.com/tanto-bishu-osafune-morihisa/

Thank you

[DoyleB]

2 signed and dated late Muromachi tanto in shirasaya, with Hozen

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=TAN-0118

 

https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/eng/product_details_e.php?prod_no=TAN-0116

 

Maybe put your own koshirae together at a later date ?

Thank you so much.