Possible Re Heated/forge O-Suriage? 13 Inch Wakazashi

[Blazeaglory]

Yeah you've said how you feel about "amateur" polishing. I get it. Still your personal opinion and no we don't have some kind of "worldly obligation" to treasure and respect random artifacts. After all they are material possessions and each person deems fit to do what he wished with his own property. I'm not speaking of national treasures or super rare historical artifacts but you're telling me that if I decided to try and polish a sword that no-one wanted and is in bad shape all of a sudden I'm the most terrible person here? Don't let your minds hold you hostage by exaggerations or assumptions as to what i would or wouldn't do. No offense

 

Now would I desecrate or destroy something on purpose as others have stated above? NO I WOULDN'T but it's a person's right to do what they wish with what they own sadly.. did i make up that rule? No, so anything to the contrary is your personal opinion. So I'm not going to talk about "amateur polishing" anymore and please don't make assumptions or put words in my mouth because some of you get a little upset about the thought of an antique Nihonto possibly turning out with a bad polish,I understand. The Bushi spirit resides in the blade. In North western Euro culture when a warrior died they folded his sword in half and buried him with it. Anyways Once again, I'M NOT GOING TO DESTROY ANY NIHONTO WITH BAD POLISH OR OTHERWISE and would never think of doing that with any antiques so please don't make assumptions and don't put words in my mouth by twisting what I said with your own over reacting opinion. And don't use the "we gave you this or that and you s**t on us" scenario either because i didn't. I had an idea and thought about it and thanks to everyone here i see the light. I get it. Calm down. I've rethought my polishing hobby and agree with you all.

 

Back to the sword. Yes its from daimyo. The polish is really old or just really bad (omaybe some amateur tried polishing it himself lets find him and tar and feather him). There are some really nice lines and the nie looks like black wet sand in layers like how a pint of Guinness looks when its settling. Within the thick layers of compressed nie "folds" are also different colors like blues and reds. It's crazy how lost I got in this thing

 

I was also thinking that maybe its a late Muromachi or early Edo imitation after the floods maybe? It is well made and has few flaws that are in the actual construction of the sword. They seem to be familiar with some smiths styles from the Soshu Den and were trying to imitate it. It was not hastily done. I'd like to think they made it, yes for more cash but also because they respected and admired the smiths from that era and den. Heck maybe one of the last smiths from that den or an apprentice who escaped the floods? Over all someone admired the style and wanted to recreate it. I don't think this is just some far fetched "copy" that knew nothing of the Soshu smiths but had some experience with their styles and techniques maybe?

 

I'm very happy with this blade and NO I WON'T TRY AND POLISH MYSELF haha. I'll take some close pics later and try to capture the nie. Anyways I hope no-one takes offense and thank you for the scolding. I do listen to reason you know. And look at what comes out of this! A nice discussion about gimei, Soshu Den, Kamakura, etc! Great times! We're cataloging history! One more 'possible'(haha) gimei from Sadmune smiths for others to reference with such great info and knowledge able people! Thank you again

 

 

D

 

PS; please don't interprete the CAP letters as yelling. They just for emphasis so point doesn't get lost I'm not Conan the Destroyer

[vajo]

No problem Dwain. We all love swords, thats why we discuss and learn together from other thoughts. As i came from european swords i learned first that all things in Japan have a soul. European swords are only tools, not more. With that view all things look a little more different for me.

[Blazeaglory]

No problem Dwain. We all love swords, thats why we discuss and learn together from other thoughts. As i came from european swords i learned first that all things in Japan have a soul. European swords are only tools, not more. With that view all things look a little more different for me.

My ancestry is Irish/ Scandinavian/ French lol

 

And just for another arguments sake about European warriors only considering their swords tools is up for debate as some think they purposely folded the sword to symbolize it's death or destruction so it could join it's master in the afterlife. But that's for anther topic????????

 

Im actually quite impressed and humbled by peoples reactions to self polishing. I can see many people have strong feelings about Nihonto as do I. Each day that goes by with my new swords as I look at this one compared to my mid Edo Wakizashi, I can see the little differences in detail and quality. There is actually soul in this whether it's the samurai or the smiths.

 

When I get home ill take some detailed pics of the area's I see.

 

Talk to everyone later. Work time

 

D

 

EDIT:Looking further at this blade the "nie waves" actually look black/ gold/ green but for a second or at certain angles appears a reddish brown or blue. Not the greatest job but still cool

[TheGermanBastard]

Infact the European sword is superior to the Japanese sword as a weapon / tool. Art is what people pay for extra ...

[vajo]

Luis you can not compare it directly. Totaly different fighting technic. I never see a european knight runing in full armor through a ricefield. 

 

A knight sword have a weight between 1,2 - 1,8 kg. Harnisch +30 kg. And the heat inside could be deadly (Herzog from Yorck died in it in Azincourt)

[TheGermanBastard]

The European sword is longer lasting and offering more possibilities but suffers from a forgotten reputation due to a faster developing arms technology than it was in Japan. Any sword is inferior to a fire arm. The sword had allready been abandoned in Europe at a much earlier than than it was in Japan as edged weapons became obsolete due to fire arms.

 

It is a myth that the Japanese Sword is much sharper than other weapons.

 

I do love the Japanese sword otherwise I would not have become a collector but there any many myth surrounding it without scientific evidence.

[vajo]

You are right. A side hit from a broad sword on a katana is worse. But you don't need a sword for such doing. Take a paddle and you have the same effect. 

I think it is the warrior who wins, not the sword.

[SAS]

Glad the message got through; i was trying to be helpful. Been there.

[Jamie]

I agree with ray.

 

And I don’t personally feel like anyone of us has the right to do as we see fit so to speak. We are all custodians of these swords. The fee you payed to “own” it, is really just your rental fee. These blades if treated properly will outlast us by hundreds of lifetimes. That’s if they are treated properly.

If you just oil it lightly and clean it periodically some of this haze will come off. By that I mean applying and removing oil from the blade.

Choji oil or a light sewing machine oil.

Refer to the NBTHK etiquette for good instructions.

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

[Dave R]

No problem Dwain. We all love swords, thats why we discuss and learn together from other thoughts. As i came from european swords i learned first that all things in Japan have a soul. European swords are only tools, not more. With that view all things look a little more different for me.

 

 Only tools! After  the 14th century perhaps, prior to that they were items of honour and pride, often named and handed down through generations. In Saxon and Viking culture they were regarded as having personalities and preferences. You need to broaden your horizons methinks!

[vajo]

Dave, these are myths. There was never a sword culture what is thought. Thats all came from the period of romance in finding a new identety for years of struggling. In Germany exists a word for this. Historismus. For a short decade in the high middle age there was a knights period. After them it goes to the dark age.

[Blazeaglory]

Only tools! After the 14th century perhaps, prior to that they were items of honour and pride, often named and handed down through generations. In Saxon and Viking culture they were regarded as having personalities and preferences. You need to broaden your horizons methinks!

Those are/ were the exact cultures I was thinking of!

 

When I'm dead you can do whatever you want with my blades but at least put a dagger in my sleeve jyst in case haha

[Blazeaglory]

Dave, these are myths. There was never a sword culture what is thought. Thats all came from the period of romance in finding a new identety for years of struggling. In Germany exists a word for this. Historismus. For a short decade in the high middle age there was a knights period. After them it goes to the dark age.

Yah I think there was more mysticism prior to the fall of Rome but most of the century that followed (400ad to maybe the christianisation of the pagans) there was still much association to swords and the afterlife/ spirits ... after that most Euro swords seem to be associated with the cross maybe?

[Blazeaglory]

I agree with ray.

 

And I don’t personally feel like anyone of us has the right to do as we see fit so to speak. We are all custodians of these swords. The fee you payed to “own” it, is really just your rental fee. These blades if treated properly will outlast us by hundreds of lifetimes. That’s if they are treated properly.

If you just oil it lightly and clean it periodically some of this haze will come off. By that I mean applying and removing oil from the blade.

Choji oil or a light sewing machine oil.

Refer to the NBTHK etiquette for good instructions.

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Oh yes I treat my blades better than my dogs and I love my pets! My point was that sometimes we get carried away with our material possessions and sometimes they become idols. Such as if we each were good custodians I think we should do more donating or long term lending to museums and similar so everyone can see these great Nihonto! Compared to just hoarding blades and coveting them individually. I don't know I'm just a little over analytical sometimes. If I had a really nice Nihonto I would consider lending it to a history museum under my name and maybe another good Nihonto organisation so they could get some publicity as well. (Not intended as a plug for the raffle wink wink) ????????

 

I agree with you and everyone for the most part and any antiques I have I treat very well. I'm a caregiver for a 90 yo granny so I've learned to be gentle with old things ????????

[vajo]

Don't missunderstand me. The european swords were high quality swords. But that depends on the smith. Around a stronghold where 1 or 2 blacksmiths. They made mostley nails and other iron goods what are needed. There was no need to forge daily swords, daggers and spears. In Japan was a hole culture build up around the sword (industry). Every man and women carried swords. The where part of a social living. In Europe only knights were allowed to carry swords. And knights are not like the mass of samurai. The knight sword was a sign power to the feudal class like in Japan. But knights don't spent thier freetime making shinsa and spoke about smiths and their knowledge. Their were no schools and clan systems of smith. No reporting and ranking of smith. 

If you say Vikings and Saxons had a sword culture? Maybe in doing war and looking for new better sword, but this was not a social aspect of living and trading. My english is to bad, i'm sorry for this to explain my thoughts. The sword culture in Japan was deep inside the spirit of the nation.

[Dave R]

 

If you say Vikings and Saxons had a sword culture? Maybe in doing war and looking for new better sword, but this was not a social aspect of living and trading. My english is to bad, i'm sorry for this to explain my thoughts. The sword culture in Japan was deep inside the spirit of the nation.

 

  Cough, cough, so why bury swords with warriors and kings? To keep the place tidy? Why have a God of smithing? I suggest you read this as a start..... https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-sword-in-anglo-saxon-england-pb.html

[Dave R]

 And this one... https://boydellandbrewer.com/records-of-the-medieval-sword-pb.html

[vajo]

Beowulf is a epos a fiction. There are no records of real existing smith and lines who have forged knight swords. The smith of the swords are unknown. Only what was found is a viking sword with a name and this is also speculations who this name was. The blades have sometimes smith marks. Not more. You can buy a nihonto book and you have tons of names and recorded work. 

[vajo]

Dave those knight swords had a rockwell between 45 - 55 HRC on the cutting edge. Japanese Katana had 60 up to 70 HRC. The cutting ability of Japanese swords were much higher than this of knight or viking swords. But what i knows..

[Dave R]

Just read the books I suggested!

 

  And if we were to compare like with like, as in 6th to 11th century Saxon and Viking swords compared to the same dated Nihonto, I think you would have a revelation.

[vajo]

No Dave. The Vikings uses steel from the city Buchara from the samaniyan dynasty in persia for theire improved spartha swords. Its not a viking or saxon development. Take it as it is. A good tool.

[SAS]

Chris, it is funny that you deny a higher view of the sword from your own culture, yet mythologize that from another (Japan). Consider that literacy was in short supply for a long time in Europe; perhaps there were famous smiths, whose swords were in great repute due to their resilience in combat (like certain Japanese smiths perhaps) but the oral repute never made it to print (or did it?) Sometimes we believe things that just ain't so. We seem to be wandering from the original topic.

[vajo]

Steve you can't compare a VW Golf with a Ferrari. Both bring you from a to b. 

We spoke about what kind of sword is better. I didn't deny the quality of european swords. And i don't deny the historical facts. So my question is, where are all the family swords in europe which were so important for our (sword) culture?

 

Maybe interesting for someone to look at.

 

This site is the most important dealer in germany for old historical swords. 

https://www.fricker-historische-waffen.de/verkaufsobjekte/blankwaffen/

[SAS]

Steve you can't compare a VW Golf with a Ferrari. Both bring you from a to b. 

We spoke about what kind of sword is better. I didn't deny the quality of european swords. And i don't deny the historical facts. So my question is, where are all the family swords in europe which were so important for our (sword) culture?

 

Maybe interesting for someone to look at.

 

This site is the most important dealer in germany for old historical swords. 

https://www.fricker-historische-waffen.de/verkaufsobjekte/blankwaffen/

 

I think all the family swords in Europe ended up with the dealer  Or maybe the rest were remelted to make guns

[Blazeaglory]

I had a really nice response typed out but lost it when I switched to full site

 

Anyways ill post some new pics of the Waki in OP.

 

EDIT: most pics are too large. I'll include a link to Flickr after I set that up ! But keep it up lol I love the conversation but maybe I'll start a new thread for this. Anyways thanks everyone