Possible Re Heated/forge O-Suriage? 13 Inch Wakazashi

[Blazeaglory]

Notice the indentations on sides? Just wondering others opinions. Thanks


D

[Ray Singer]

Wear from centuries of being mounted with a tsuba.

[Blazeaglory]

Wear from centuries of being mounted with a tsuba.

You're speaking my language ????

 

Originally that's what I was thinking as well. They must have really liked that tsuba. Pretty amazing

 

Is it just me tho or is there a diagonal zone/blemish under habaki(area) ?

 

 

D

[Blazeaglory]

Well I pulled the trigger on this one (roughly $500usd). Its a little beat up and possible GeiMei but I like that sorta thing. The weirder the better. Although i still love the top end super smith Nihonto something keeps drawing me to the battle damaged or "off" blades. But yes even some items I wont buy haha. I mean a sword is drawn to blood right?

 

Its a 13.9' O-Wakizashi 'supposedly' from the Gentoku during Kamakura era but its style would seem to put it in later era (if not it would be one of a handful of extremely rare) considering not many Wakizashi are from Komakura era. Its Shinogi Zukuri for one. The blade does appear to be really old tho and Koto but I could be wrong

 

Ill post more pics later when I have time.

[Jussi Ekholm]

If I'd have to guess based on that pic in op I'd guess it reads 元禄二年八 月日 - day in 8th month of 2nd year of Genroku (1689). At 13,9 inches it is just c. 35,3 cm so just slightly over tanto classification in length.

[Blazeaglory]

If I'd have to guess based on that pic in op I'd guess it reads 元禄二年八 月日 - day in 8th month of 2nd year of Genroku (1689). At 13,9 inches it is just c. 35,3 cm so just slightly over tanto classification in length.

 

 

Ah I messed up. I was thinking about GENTOKU era. I accidentally typed Genroku..

 

But yes I was thinking that maybe the person I bought it from had those two era's confused as well. Seems to fit better in the Genroku huh? The "mei" says Sadamune School but I have read that is a highly forged school?

 

You think with the condition of the nakago that is Edo? Seems to be fairly worn down but I bow to your expertise:-)

[Jussi Ekholm]

If it is Sadamune gimei then Gentoku makes sense, and it probably is. Early dates in general are quite rare while dates such as Genroku are common. I can't really say anything about the age based on those pics, could be Muromachi could be Edo, anyones guess is as good as mine.

[Blazeaglory]

If it is Sadamune gimei then Gentoku makes sense, and it probably is. Early dates in general are quite rare while dates such as Genroku are common. I can't really say anything about the age based on those pics, could be Muromachi could be Edo, anyones guess is as good as mine.

One thing I just noticed is that the nakago is not filed it's "stipled" or dotted. I don't know the exact phrase but it appears that instead of diagonal lines filed in it was hit multiple times with very tiny punches. Achieves the same function but a little artistic maybe? Unless my eyes deceive me.

 

What drew me to this one was the short length of Wakizashi. At first I was thinking maybe it was a o-suriage tachi into what it is now or an actual 'rare' early Wakizashi but I guess I was being hopeful haha. I've been trying to go by the "judge the sword" perspective (although this one isn't in the greatest condition I'm hoping a good polish might bring it out a little).

 

Thanks for the advice. Be nice if it was older but a Genroku era blade would still be great.

[Blazeaglory]

If I'd have to guess based on that pic in op I'd guess it reads 元禄二年八 月日 - day in 8th month of 2nd year of Genroku (1689). At 13,9 inches it is just c. 35,3 cm so just slightly over tanto classification in length.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Yep looks like there is signature of Sadamune & Gentoku.

[Blazeaglory]

Yep looks like there is signature of Sadamune & Gentoku.

Waiting to get this in hand but so far I'm leaning towards geimei.

[Ray Singer]

There are no authentic examples of a signed Soshu Sadamune (Takagi Sadamune signed differently).

[Blazeaglory]

There are no authentic examples of a signed Soshu Sadamune (Takagi Sadamune signed differently).

I see, so you're saying anything signed as such is geimei?

 

More than likely as Jussi said it's probably Genroku or later and sig/date was added then to make it more appealing. But all this is just assumption and speculation I guess until someone at shinsa with knowledge actually holds it and looks at it. I'm just rambling haha

[Ray Singer]

Yes, any sword signed with this mei would be gimei.

[Blazeaglory]

Yes, any sword signed with this mei would be gimei.

10-4 bood guddy!

 

At least I can examine it to familiarize myself with how gimei look in some cases. Plus I'd like to see where this blade actually came from.

 

Thanks for all the info guys!

[Blazeaglory]

Being delivered today so can't wait!

 

From the pics the lines look really straight and other than some rust and scratches I can see a decent waki under the mess.

 

I'll post more pics when I have it in hand! Also arriving soon is a really nice Kanisada koto tanto with a awesome bright hamon

 

EDIT: Just received from mailman. Don't mind the mess! I manage properties and this is my work car plus I'm always finding junk and recyclables so ignore the crap!

 

If you can see in the last pic (with the red) you'll see the mune. I'm guessing those cracks/lines are a form of fukure? They don't seem to run deep or interfere with the structure but i was wondering what the exact term is and are they "fatal"? I'll post some detailed pics later from home.

 

Overall for the price I really like this blade and I'm going to practice polishing on this one. I have a polishing stone "kit" coming from Japan because I need a new hobby. Being a caregiver for my elderly loved ones for roughly a decade has begun to wear on me and i need some free time.

 

I want to thank everyone here as well for all the info and patience. I know I'm new and really don't know anything but this site is usually where I turn to when I am in need of help/info. So thanks for putting up with me!

[SAS]

Blaze, you may want to rethink your intended new hobby, as amateur polishing is extremely frowned upon here. You are far more likely to do damage than "save" a nihonto.

[Ray Singer]

Dwaine, as Steve wrote above amateur sword restoration is not a hobby that you will find supporters of here. I would strongly encourage you not to attempt restoring your sword or any other traditionally-made swords. If you absolutely must put steel to stone there are countless numbers of Chinese replicas that you can work on.

[Jean]

In fact, there are several steps to become a polisher

 

1 - First of all you must have an inborn aptitude to polishing (I know this, because I have not this aptitude)

2 - you must have a qualified teacher

3 - you will have to learn all the steps thoroughly (which takes years) and will have to master totally a step before passing to the following one.

4 - you will have to understand steel so as to use the right stones at the right time.

5 - for this you will have to learn kantei...

 

Too tired to carry on, it is almost 2 a.m.

[Vermithrax16]

Wow, this thread.

[SteveM]

Date on the registration card says 元應二年　Gen'o 2 (1320)

[Blazeaglory]

Dwaine, as Steve wrote above amateur sword restoration is not a hobby that you will find supporters of here. I would strongly encourage you not to attempt restoring your sword or any other traditionally-made swords. If you absolutely must put steel to stone there are countless numbers of Chinese replicas that you can work on.

I agree and I have no illusions as to mastering this. I understand what it takes to become a traditional polisher. I have been following this topic for quite some time and I highly respect and admire the entire chain of specialists it takes to create a great sword. I would never presume to be like them or try to polish any sword of value. I would definitely start with non Nihonto. I already have a few Chinese candidates. But like I said if I do undertake this task I have no presumptions or think I can just walk right into it. I'm highly cerebral and analytical. Just need to work on my patience

 

I have always gone at life on my own and have mastered Japanese and American motors, built multiple American classics as well as Japanese classics from tare down and ground up, stripped to bare metal. I'm somewhat proficient in wood working and construction as well as basic welding and basic metal works. I have a nice shop with many tools and relatives who are professionals themselves. I understand the basics of polishing (different grits of different stones, slurrys, principles of the different layers of hardness of steel, directional flow during different stages, etc).. This is something for me, not a side business.

 

I understand the traditional apprentice and master relationship but in reality I'm not getting any younger and I'm knocking on deaths door. Would I like to become a polisher using the proper traditional methods? Of course. Can I at this moment? Not at all. I would also like to send my blades to a pro but the quotes I received for the 13.9" waki I could literally buy the entire polishing set and another decent Nihonto. Not to mention a multiple year wait. But I'm not knocking that I understand good polishers deserve a good price and time. I would expect that and condone it. I just can't see spending that much on the low level blades I have now. Plus its probably just me but I develop a relationship with my projects and put my heart and soul into it.

 

Looking at this sword in this thread, would any of you pay almost 1500$ to have it polished professionally? Not to mention and no insult intended but if a person wants to try and become a self polisher, who's business is that? As if it cannot be done? Also if I bought a 40,000$ rare katana and hammered it into a pretzel then welded it to a steel plate and called it art, who's business is that? Sure people might "frown" upon it but don't we have a right to live our lives as we see fit? Now I would never do that and I'm just being devil's advocate. What I'm saying is if I listened to people who have said "better not do that because you're not a professional or you'll screw it up" I would never be where I'm at today. None of us would. That doesn't mean I don't listen to others advice or opinions and use that knowledge accordingly, it means we're all individuals and choose to live our lives as we see fit.

 

Look at the bright side... if it doesn't work out there will be a slightly used polishing stone set for sale here haha

 

Ill promise you all one thing. If I decide to do this I won't work on any genuine Nihonto until I feel at least comfortable enough to do a basic polish. I'll even verify with everyone here first and we can take a vote. Or it'll never happen because ill keep spending money on actual blades and finally find one worth sending out to a pro. I'm still 50/50 at this point but I welcome all your points!

 

So a little long winded but I have no-one else to talk to who appreciates this as much as I do. I really can understand why you all frown on self polishing. I totally get it.

[Blazeaglory]

Date on the registration card says 元應二年　Gen'o 2 (1320)

Yeah. That's why I originally bought it because I was hoping it was that old.

 

So far a few have said this is possible geimei as it stands now but is that official? The Nahkago Ana looks chiseled and the Mei looks like it flows good as each chisel mark is exactly the same distance from the next and the depth is fairly consistent (other than areas of wear).

 

But the nakago seems in pretty good shape for a 700 year old sword. Actually the entire blade seems in good shape for its age. Although it does look koto and has it's blemishes, something is preventing me from calling it genuine. In my hand it is really straight and balanced well and sharp as ever. It was made well. It's just bugging me.

 

What should I do?

[SteveM]

Geimei 芸名 = Movie star or actor's name

Gimei 　偽銘 (or 偽名)　＝ false name, forgery

 

This looks to be a garden-variety wakizashi with some welding openings appearing in the mune. I think for an official judgment on the mei, you will need to submit it to shinsa.

As an unofficial judgment, I can say with confidence that this is gimei. 

[Blazeaglory]

Geimei 芸名 = Movie star or actor's name

Gimei 　偽銘 (or 偽名)　＝ false name, forgery

 

This looks to be a garden-variety wakizashi with some welding openings appearing in the mune. I think for an official judgment on the mei, you will need to submit it to shinsa.

As an unofficial judgment, I can say with confidence that this is gimei.

Yeah that's spell check again but thanks. I think we're clear it's "gimei".

 

Anyways back to actually judging the blade. I was looking at it now for a while under different lights and what I thought was the hada folds (maybe either masame or ayasugi) but in reality it's what looks like a bunch of nie. It looks like wavey, multiple, layers of nie. Above the hamon into the jihada. Mostly black nie but also looks to be other colours? Is that possible?

 

Can't really tell by the pics but in hand there is allot going on under the scratches and haze on this Wakizashi. Whichever smith forged it they put some effort into it. So maybe I will pony up the dough to have a professional polish it!

[paulb]

I think we have gone round and round the unqualified polishing discussion so many times and it is documented here to the point of tedium.

1. No we do not have the right to do what we like with artefacts of any form. Our duty is to conserve and maintain. Taking a historical piece and converting it to a "work of art" is not someones right it is irresponsible to the point of criminality.

2. Saying you would never work on an important sword is meaningless unless you are confident you are able to identify an important sword in an unpolished state. Few here after very many eyars expereince would make such a claim

3. No it may be that your sword is not commercial viable to send for an expensive polish. But if you cherish it as you say as a piece of history you should conserve it as such and not risk destroyong it by having a go at polishing.

Sorry I am sounding like the unwelcoming and aggressive people I complain about here occassionally but we have had this debate so often heard the same arguments again and again and it really is not something to debate. Anyone who proffesses a love or even an interest in this subject should not argue in favour of "having a go" at polishing

[PNSSHOGUN]

You simply won't get any support or help from this board once you drop the "polish it myself" bomb. We take more kindly to murderers & thieves than amateur polishers, remember this sword has survived hundreds of years just to be rendered worthless by one hot head that knows just enough to be dangerous hauling off on a "polish". It really is the ultimate faux pas for this board & all collectors. Would you go out & spend years carefully, lovingly and painstakingly restoring a real classic car to perfect condition then immediately enter it into the local demolition derby once the final coat of paint has dried? 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Based on the pics you provided I'd guess this came from eBay seller Daimyou54eb?

 

I'd guess it is late Muromachi / early Edo period wakizashi with false signature of very famous smith added sometime during it's lifetime like I said earlier. The thing with Daimyou54's eBay sales is the prices are attractive as they are quite low but the downside is that condition is usually quite poor. Yours seem to be in quite good overall condition (basing this on the pic where sword is in your lap). The wares that he sells often have a bit "hazy" polish, are in rough condition and flaws are to be expected. It is often that proper restoration for them is not financially viable or the swords are just worn out. He generally knows quite well what he is selling (at least it seems like that to me). So you won't most likely discover any hidden treasures.

 

I think you can enjoy this wakizashi in it's current state as details seem to pop up a bit in proper angle & light.

[vajo]

I'm with Jussi. Take the mei as a nice feature. The blade is good enough to overlive the next 500 years. No need for scrubbing on the blade.

[Ray Singer]

It is disappointing, after coming here for feedback and advice, that you are telling us that you still may mutilate this sword (as you are guaranteed to do without any formal training) in spite of our recommendations not to take this course.  

 

Not to mention and no insult intended but if a person wants to try and become a self polisher, who's business is that? As if it cannot be done? Also if I bought a 40,000$ rare katana and hammered it into a pretzel then welded it to a steel plate and called it art, who's business is that? Sure people might "frown" upon it but don't we have a right to live our lives as we see fit?

 

The reason that these pieces have survived this long, and in such condition, is that their caretakers regarded themselves as custodians rather than owners. In a short time (relative to the overall lifetime of the sword) the sword would be passed along to another caretaker and should ideally have been preserved in as close to its original health as possible. So no, I disagree that it is only the business of the 'owner' and that they can do whatever they want with swords in their care. 

 

When I look at the photos of your sword I see absolutely no reason why it should be restored, even by a licensed togishi. The older polish looks generally intact and you should be able to study and enjoy the wakizashi as it presently is. John Yumoto used to say that he was better at evaluating swords than some of his Japanese counterparts because he had to do so in the somewhat degraded condition and state of polish they were often found in. If you need to struggle a bit more to appreciate the sword through a few light scratches and stains, then that harder effort made to study the workmanship will go towards further training your eyes in what to look for.