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tachi horimono translation

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#31 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:56 PM

Jussi,

           thanks for your comments, my reply to Mark above must have crossed in the ether with yours, as can be seen from Marcus's description of his lineage there seems to be an issue, maybe the guy never existed I don't know but I guess there must be extant blades by him somewhere, and by default a signature e, or at least a reference in some book or another, as he is listed both by Marcus and Hawley.

 

    As to whether the blade has a mid-Nanbokuchō shape and Nakajima-Rai characteristics I am unsure and do not feel suitably informed enough to make that call and would suppose there would be numerous variations for the uninitiated to fall over another reason perhaps why I have prostrated myself here in front of the mighty and learned in order to learn.

 

  Paul

 

​ 


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#32 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 11:03 PM

jussi,

 

    just googled nakajima rai and this came up  http://ryujinswords.com/rai.htmsugaha very similar and yasurime kiri same as on my blade....what do  you think?

 

paul


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#33 seattle1

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:02 AM

Paul:

 The second kanji is not "nari" IMHO. Many here are better kanji readers than I am, so if it is "nari" please chime in. Otherwise this is a wild goose chase for sure. It appears to be "gatsu" to me as mentioned above.

 Arnold F.



#34 Katsujinken

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:09 AM

jussi,

just googled nakajima rai and this came up http://ryujinswords.com/rai.htmsugaha very similar and yasurime kiri same as on my blade....what do you think?

paul


This is not Rai. You’re headed in the wrong direction, I’m afraid. Without seeing it in hand my vote is that it’s not a nihonto. But if it is – and it certainly could be! – what you have is something much younger and far inferior workmanship to Rai or any contemporaries of Rai.
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#35 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:20 AM

Arnold F

              did you look at Fujishiro pages 24 and 25, as suggested ,because if you have you cannot fail to see the kanji for nari is almost identical to the one I have presented here.

 

   Perhaps someone else who has a copy can compare and post their thoughts on here...it might be wishful thinking on my behalf so lets see.

 

  Paul


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#36 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:33 AM

Michael,

              thanks for the interest, wasn't aware that I was suggesting it was Rai but just asking if it was, as I have suggested previously as far as Nihonto is concerned I  am a complete novice that is why I have come here to seek advice.

 

     The one thing that this thread has shown me however is that advice has  been given by various members that contradict others as above some are saying the blade is a Chinese fake others say that the blade is kosher but the horimono are not so please tell me what a mere novice like myself ,without the years of experience some of the commenters on here have, is to think ?     I imagine that with uncertain blades there are probably as many different opinions as there are blades this is why , if someone is offering an opinion it is not unreasonable to it to be backed up by hard fat otherwise said opinion is merely conjecture.

 

      Paul


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#37 Katsujinken

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 01:50 AM

Yes, I know it can be bewildering and frustrating. The truth is without much better photos you are likely to get contradictory opinions online.

The best thing you can do is take the sword to a show or meeting of a local club, if you have one.

Where are you located? I’m sure our members would be happy to point you in the direction of the nearest show or club.

Good luck!
Michael
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#38 seattle1

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 02:59 AM

Hello:

 No Paul I had not looked at the Fujishiro images until right now, relying rather on the standard written kanji which looks quite different than your blade and Fujishiro's example. I don't want to diminish your sword but would still doubt the mei from its apparent newness, as well as blade shape and the bizaare kanji on the blade proper and the poor horimono. In those regards I hope I am wrong as another Tomonari would be a terrific find.

 Arnold F.



#39 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 10:10 AM

Michael,

              thanks for your message and advice, an earlier post from Geraint suggested visiting the To-Ken UK meeting and he also very kindly offered to have a look at the blade and for both I thank him.

 

Arnold F

              I am not sure if you are saying that you agree with my initial view that the Kanji illustrated in Fujishiro bear a strong resemblance to those on my blade if only in form, where I think it falls down is in the execution of them would appear from my very simplistic view that they lack confidence in execution, not really looked at enough  mei to know if I am right or wrong on this.

 

            It would appear to me that there are, what I thought to be, a few initial simple questions to answer regarding said blade and to my mind they are as follows

  • Is the blade Japanese -  some say yes some are saying no
  • Is the mei correct - are there examples known - Messrs Hawley and Sekso  et al must have got their information to include his name in their various tomes from somewhere
  • Any similar examples known of the execution of the kanji on the blade -  are they real characters - what do they translate as
  • What is the status of the dragon horimono _is it just a crude rendition of one and poorly executed _ are there any similar examples known

       With regard to the dragon I have spent a little time looking at the beast and would suggest that it has been on the blade for some time and would offer up the evidence for this assumption in that if you look carefully  you will see that on what would have previously been the high spots on the carving that they have now developed flats , which would suggest that the blade has been polished several times after the carving of it.


Paul

#40 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 10:32 AM

I would second Geraints suggestion of getting into Tōken Society meeting in London. There are great collectors in the group and they can tell you a lot when seeing the sword in hand.

 

I accidentally stumbled across this unknown Tomonari while trying to search NMB; http://ryujinswords.com/tomonari.htm, http://www.militaria...5-nakajima-rai/

 

I think the most likely scenario is that your sword just has false signature of one of the most famous Japanese smiths added on. My guess would be that it is genuine Japanese sword (fairly new) with crudely made horimono and roughly 75 cm blade, I think it is original length and not shortened. Possibly a suguha hamon but I am not sure as I can't see much in the pictures. Not sure if the characters on the other side of the blade are carved or etched? I'd dare to think that the horimono is Japanese made too, I am sure most of us have seen lower quality work on some lower quality Japanese swords. The horimono is tamaōi-ryu, a dragon hunting a gem, it it quite common design of horimono and usually takes a lot of space on the blade. I have seen large horimono of this (and other large dragon) design many times on lower quality swords, possibly added in later to hide some flaws for example. Or maybe someone just wanted a huge dragon on their sword.. :dunno:

 

I am not sure if there are mei examples of Settsu Tomonari. Sometimes in Japanese sword tradition the family trees etc. get passed down by tradition and there are errors and impossibilities in them. As you see with Settsu Tomonari and date given to him, where as his supposed father Yoshiuji worked c. 50 years later than him.


Jussi Ekholm


#41 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 11:29 AM

Jussi,

         thanks for your insightful reply but as always more information elicits more questions, with regard to the dragon I too have seen examples of large dragons but to date not one going through clouds so would be interested , from an academic point of view , for a reference to one the kanji on the blade are actually carved into it, incidentally do you know what they mean ? , as I would be most interested in the meaning behind it, if any

 

Paul


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#42 mywei

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 11:30 AM

Jussi, interesting that the Bizen Yokoyama '56th Tomonari' that you found also signed "Kimi Banzai" which incidentally is the crude kanji horimono on the ura of this blade


Matt

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#43 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 11:35 AM

Mywei,

             thanks for the information,not sure what it implies though, do you have any thoughts that you would like to share ?

 

  Paul


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#44 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 12:04 PM

Mywei,

            do you know what Kimi Banzai means ?

 

 

Paul


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#45 mywei

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 05:59 PM

Long live the Emperor/sovereign/lord

https://meitou.info/index.php/君万歳
According to this site there was a legendary 'Kimi banzai Tomonari' odachi owned by Taira no Noritsune during the Heian period that was lost in the waters during the battle of Dan no Ura. ’Kimi banzai’ was signed ura-mei. Also a now Juyo Bunkazai blade was gifted by Toyotomi Hideyoshi to the Hirosaki domain daimyo Tsugaru Tamenobu. Both forged by ko-bizen tomonari of course.

It seems later generations of Tomonari therefore also signed using Kimibanzai.
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Matt

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#46 zilul

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 07:53 PM

Matt,

       thanks for the information, both  informative and interesting but as above in my reply to Jussi, the more information you get the more questions it raises, do you have a view on the blade presented here?

 

Paul


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#47 mywei

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:09 PM

Hi Paul, my feeling is it is nihonto, probably shinshinto or younger. Horimono is not great as many have said
Matt

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#48 zilul

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:02 PM

Matt,

          thanks for your input.

 

   Paul


Paul

#49 Ian

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 12:36 PM

Hi Paul

 

Can you bring it to the Birmingham arms fair on the 9th of September? Members from all the UK Token societies will be there.



#50 Peter Bleed

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 02:32 AM

Paul,

I think that most of the "negative" and/or suspicious comments you have received about this sword have less to do with the details of the signature than with its general appearance. This signature looks fresh and craftlessly made. If you were presented with a letter signed by Shakespeare you might reasonably examine the handwriting. As good as it might seem, you would also have to look to see if it were written with  quill pen or a ballpoint. Your sword seems - to me (!) - to have a signature that looks brand new and written by someone who was not practiced in sword signing.

Peter


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#51 Bazza

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 02:45 AM

Absolutely agree with Peter.  As a "book" exercise this whole exchange has seemed to me fruitless with much ink spent for little gain.  The sword itself needs to be seen in the hand by knowledgeable people.  However, do let's hear again after the Birmingham Fair.

 

Oh, and as for the inscribbled signature, whoever "signed" it used a 4-inch nail as his choice of pen!!!

 

BaZZa.



#52 zilul

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 09:34 PM

Peter, negative or suspicious comments are your words not mine I was merely pointing out the contradictory comment on here as in my above missive of the 11 th August.Being a mere mortal and not having reached the god like status of Japanese sword guru from my first post I asked if anyone could point me in the direction of a genuine signature of Tomonari as an exercise in which I could compare and probably work out for myself that I was not correct, It would be interesting to know what you would have done had you come across this blade in you very early sword collecting days , would you have walked away from it I wonder ?

 

     With regard to my various messages, I come from a profession  where one doesn't give an opinion unless it can be backed up with hard documentary fact and is in fact objective not subjective so perhaps that is a  discipline that is not observed in sword collecting world !

 

      You were very quick to decry the blade when others on here took a little more time and effort to arrive at a judgement and clearly see it in a different light than yourself, are you saying that these people are wrong I wonder ?is their ability to look at a sword inferior to your own ?because  they are looking at exactly the same information as you and are coming to a different conclusion.

 

 

 

      The sword  whether right or wrong will always form a part of my collection to be as I feel it has taught me  quite a lot about Japanese swords but I feel that it has taught me even more about people and their opinions.

 

       I have accepted an offer to attend a Token meeting in September so will gladly report back on their findings

 

 

 

       

Paul


Paul

#53 Stephen

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 09:59 PM

Case in point of hot Galley's 

 

You can’t always get what you want, no!
You can’t always get what you want (tell ya baby)
You can’t always get what you want (no)
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need

– The Rolling Stones


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#54 TETSUGENDO

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 07:07 AM

OH YEAH!

 

-S-


StevenK


#55 Geraint

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:24 PM

Dear Paul.

 

There is a possibility here that we have not mentioned.  There is a type of sword often referred to as a coronation tachi.  The story goes that these very recent tachi were produced for the coronation of the Showa emperor.  Some of them have Gendai blades made by smiths working at the time, some have older blades.  It is conceivable that this rather utilitarian sword was recruited to serve in this capacity and that the rather sketchy horimono and mei were added to reference the tachi that Matt names, the "Kimi Banzai Tomonari".  Perhaps someone with a distant family connection to the sword wanted to carry it as a symbolic reference to a great past.

 

Whilst this will not satisfy your search for an oshigata for comparison purposes it might provide an answer that accounts for the fact that this is a true Japanese sword but with more recent horimono and mei.

 

I have an example with a mei for Kuniteru though the blade is clearly of very recent make and has nothing to do with the smith named.

 

CIMG1070.JPG CIMG1122.JPG

 

All the best.


Geraint

#56 Vermithrax16

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 01:51 PM

Another to look at:
http://sanmei.com/co...)黒石目地塗鞘打刀拵.html

Jeremiah

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#57 zilul

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 07:16 PM

Geraint, thanks for a very informative post, not something that I have heard of previously so will try to look into a little further

 

Jeremiah , may thanks for posting the link, a fine looking blade, at least in my eyes.

 

Paul


Paul





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