Identification Help Requested

[FlorianB]

Hello everyone,

I want to show You a recently purchased tsuba.
H: 81 mm, W: 78 mm, thickness 7,8 mm
Excellent steel with granular tekkotsu in the rim (kaku-mimi-ko-niku).
The design comprises enso, warabite and crossed timbers (latter in niku-bori).

Though quality is out of question, opinions of fellow collectors differ concerning age and school.  So I’d like to ask the community if there’s an idea where to put it.

I also would be glad if there are one or two pieces out there to substantiate the origin.

Thank You,
FlorianB
 

[Michael 101]

Hi Florian,

 

What a superb tsuba. When I first looked I wanted to say Yagyu but Im not sure if this is one of their designs ( I have a book somewhere and will follow this thought up ). If Yagyu then it would be a rare large size for the school.

 

Could you confirm its thickness at the centre and at the edge as this detail could be useful to others in assistance.

 

Given the large proportions and iron quality my guess would Owari of the early 1600,s

 

Thanks for posting

 

All the best

 

Michael

[FlorianB]

To specify the thickness: 7,8 mm at the rim, Seppa-dai is as thick as the rim, maybe about 0,2 mm thinner, it depends where You measure.

Yagyu is an interesting supposition. I’m not an expert but to my knowledge Yagyu Tsuba are smaller, thinner and the edges are rounded off so the sukashi has a smooth appearance. The design itself I can’t relate to Yagyu.

This design hints clearly to Owari and a friend of mine pinned the Tsuba down to this school. The steel would fit, too, but I haven’t seen Owari with such niku-bori yet.

 

Best, Florian

[Curran]

I've changed my mind on this one several times.

I like the tsuba.

 

My first thoughts were towards Edo Owari, but I keep seeing what looks like 3 piece construction in the sukashi interior photo.

The thickness, nakago ana shape, and some other things all have me considering some of the Akasaka guys. Still, mimi isn't exactly Akasaka and I don't have an example of any where an Akasaka smith went off the Reservation and did a mimi like this.

[Pete Klein]

Could be Sado.  Thickness, a lack of refinement and unusual design would go that way.

[Michael 101]

Yagyu did get quite large but your right not to this tsuba proportions. It was the nakago ana shape that influenced my initial thoughts in that direction.

 

I think Owari was the better call - especially the circle within the circle element of the design which is frequently seen - flick through the Sasano silver book for at least 4 examples.

 

I also considered Akasaka but with that mimi I very much doubt so - but all these schools ( Akasaka, Yagyu and Owari ) share influences.

 

I still think early Edo for date.

 

Kindest regards

 

Michael

[b.hennick]

How about Ono?  I find Sado pieces more refined.

[Curran]

How about Ono?  I find Sado pieces more refined.

 

Not Ono, in my opinion.

I understand your reasoning, but they tend to be smaller and sandier. The NBTHK does seem to me to randomly dump some hard-to-classify tsuba into this category.

I also know what you mean by Sado being more refined, but Sado tsuba definitely has a fair bit of variety.

[FlorianB]

In the opinion of a famous german Tsuba expert it has to be Ko-Akasaka. Thickness, steel and tekkotsu support this.

Certainly I won’t dare to contradict, but I’m puzzled by this stiff Owari Design, the angular mimi, the lack of awari-gitae (indeed there is no hint of any linear structure in this Tsuba) and I miss a widening of the sukashi at the rim.

 

Best, Florian

[Curran]

Well, that fits. I was aiming at 3rd gen Akasaka (under the ko-Akasaka umbrella)

It certainly isn't 2nd gen.

 

His were particularly robust or thick at times, and he experimented a bit.

I have also seen a tsuba by him get papers to 'Ono'.

Bad calls happen, but that was one of the most dubious in recent memory.

 

If the german expert is whom I imagine, please see his book. You will see the nakago ana shapes there on several of his Akasaka examples. Like Michael was thinking, they are sort of rectangular like the Yagyu ones, but a bit more pinched at the top.

[FlorianB]

Yes, we’re talking about the very same person. No wonder that he, too, named the 3. Generation as possible maker. He dispelled my above mentioned doubts as an exception to the rule.

So You see why I hoped to get shown some examples to prove those exceptions.

 

Florian

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

I am not able to add anything of value to the discussion, but I would like to ask how one could judge the NAKAGO-ANA of an old and obviously 'used' TSUBA in terms of size and shape. On many TSUBA I see extensive alterations and adaptations to different sword tangs, so unless there are a number of UBU TSUBA of that school or maker as references, I am in doubt how to evaluate this feature. 

[Curran]

 On many TSUBA I see extensive alterations and adaptations to different sword tangs, so unless there are a number of UBU TSUBA of that school or maker as references, I am in doubt how to evaluate this feature. 

 

There are.

For fun, here is a Ford thread on this sort of thing:  http://www.followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1541

[FlorianB]

cit.: "...how one could judge the NAKAGO-ANA of an old and obviously 'used' TSUBA in terms of size and shape..."

 

If You compare nakago-ana of a certain Tsubako common traits (shape, seme-tagane) appear frequently.
But, of course, later alterations have to be carefully examined and considered.

It’s the same with seppa-dai which are modified in many cases as well.

Best, Florian

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you!

I am still in doubt if I look at older TSUBA with NAKAGO-ANA that have undergone many adaptations. How much might be left of the original form? 

[FlorianB]

Hello Jean,

 

on earlier Tsuba the rim of the nakago-ana was optimized by more or less hammering, later seki-gane (softmetal inserts) where in use, so there was only seldom need to alter the nakago-ana itself.

In my opinion a lot of nakago-ana haven’t changed too much and extremly modified ones are notorious. See example below.

 

Cincerly, Florian

 

[Curran]

I am still in doubt if I look at older TSUBA with NAKAGO-ANA that have undergone many adaptations. How much might be left of the original form? 

 

It depends. On some well documented schools, you have a pretty good idea and can tell how much is probably changed from the original.

 

On of my favorite tsuba is an early Edo kinko tsuba that is Tokubetsu Hozon and [to me] a beautiful gem. The smith is very well documented in many books.

Unfortunately for me, this particular example has had the nakago ana altered quite a bit [at least 2 times, if not more] from the original.

This is probably the most significant reason that I don't think it would ever pass Juyo.

The nakago ana is so far from ubu that I think it knocks it out of any Juyo possibility.

 

FLORIAN:   inside the sukashi at the kogai ana side, you don't feel there is evidence of 3 layer construction there?

It is a very healthy tsuba, so the layer construction wouldn't be as evident as with some that have had more -seasoning- over the years.

I've seen one that had been through enough wear that you could actually see the 3 layer construction on the worn down outside of the mimi.

[FlorianB]

Curran,

 

I examined this Tsuba anew, but I'm not sure if those structures result from the 3-Layer-technique or by use and/or corrosion.

I tried to make some pictures but I apologize for these mediocre ones. But please have a look by yourself.

 

 

Best, Florian

[FlorianB]

Gentlemen,
I won’t conclude this telling discussion without giving You a glance on the paper issued for this particular Tsuba:

 

Best, Florian

[Curran]

As I said, I've seen a tsuba by 3rd gen Akasaka that was a bit outside the norm.

The NBTHK at the time gave it to 'Ono', though the iron was Akasaka.

 

Then again, I purchased a tsuba with 2 sets of NBTHK Hozon papers:   1st papers to Shoami.  2nd papers to Kanayama.

The seller was kind enough to include both papers.

The tsuba is published in your German author's book as Kanayama. I more agree with that, though I personally would date it to early Edo.

[FlorianB]

The paper seems to indicate, that the NBTHK played safe and therefore attributed to Shoami - that figures always.

In such cases it’s a pity that there is no explanation to the outcome.

Interstingly there is written “maru mimi” instead of "kaku-mimi ko-niku". A minor mistake only, but maybe an evidence of a certain routine.

 

By the way: Obviously based on this certificate it was sold as “Ko-Shoami from Muromachi”.

 

 

The mentiond Kanayama: Is it the one with the salmon?

 

Florian