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Mei Or Mumei, Which Do You Prefer?


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Just a general question for the members.

 

Do you like to go for swords carrying a Mei, or only swords with known and certified Mei, in fact the more information the better?

 

Or do you prefer to find something unsigned, and if so, why might that attract you?

 

Or...

 

Please feel free to comment.

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I have two signed swords, both with questionable mei (actually one of them is undoubtedly gimei) The remainder are mumei. There are two reasons for this

The first and obvious one is that mumei blades are less expensive than their signed equivalent. It is therefore possible to buy better quality work at a more affordable price.

 

The second and less obvious is I think you look more closely, study in greater detail and appreciate features better. When a blade is signed and the mei authenticated you (I) tend to accept the mei look to see the blade has the features I expect it to have and move on. With a mumei blade I look in a lot more depth trying to understand why it has been given the attribution it has (assuming it has been given one) or trying to reach a conclusion as to what it might be. Basically I am forced to look in more detail,work harder and learn more.

(Reason number one is still the main one though :) )

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1. First i look if i like the sword.

2. If i like what i see, i look to the price.

3. If i like the price, i look to mei or mumei.

4. If it is with signature i try to find out if its genuine.

5. If not i look back to the price.

6. If i like the price i buy it.

7. I prefer buying a blade with signature. Otherwise if the price fits for me its not important.

8. I must like what i see.

9. Going back to 1.

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Hello:

 The issue of searching for blades with mei, with certified mei, or unsigned can really reduce to the issue of the size of the implicit discount in the price of each. While the answer to the question posed does not directly derive from Nakahara Nobuo, ably translated  with annotations by Paul Martin, Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide (Kodansha, 2010), what follows presupposes that it has been read. Nakahara's general dismissal of unsigned blades, both ubu, a type of sword which to him is begging for a rationale, and suriage, is well known.

 A blade with a mei calls for a certificate of authenticity. A buyer of such a sword that does not have a certificate could be full of confidence and hope, but without a certificate resale expectations, for any of many reasons down the line, would have to face very hard resistance if the owner expects anything close to a similar certified example, with adjustments also having to be taken into consideration for a likely future certificate level awarded. Certified blades speak for themselves though sellers are likely to encourage a triumph of rosy expectations over reality by suggesting an eventual upgrade.

 Even a certified mei has to be viewed with some caution, particularly if koto for the simple reason that the koto data base of known correct mei is scanter than that for post-koto blades, and in my experience even within those examples said to be right there seems to be more variation than within post-koto blade mei for a given smith.

 Following Nakahara I cannot understand why anyone would seek out ubu mumei, though some are doubtless bought with the intention of a deceptive promotion though the addition of a mei.

 As for suriage mumei the danger is that they are seen by many to be virtuous blades that have lost their mei and even Nakahara is open to some limited leeway here. The issue is one of the "right price" and if seemingly overpriced the relation to a possible shinsa call comes into play. I cannot prove it but I suspect that the spread between asking price and the appropriate actual price that is realistic is wider for this category of blade than for any other, so buyer beware! Don't underestimate the bargaining power that a prospective buyer would have for such a sword as there is so much uncertainty, and markets are supposed to make that reflected in price if the market is reasonably efficient. As a natural experiment, assuming someone has the curiosity, time and money to do so, would be the purchase of a half-dozen nice looking and comparably well maintained and polished suriage mumei swords and submit them to the two different NTHK shinsa groups, and to the NBTHK, and see what happens. I would guess that the 18 resulting papers, if all are issued papers, would show a substantial amount of variation in attribution of time of manufacture, school/smith, and quality level blade to blade and judging group to judging group.

 Finally, there are beautiful suriage mumei blades out there and no reason not to collect them, but as for value its all a matter of having the unknowns discounted correctly. Some are gems but that requires a careful buyer to separate the gem from the would be gem.

 Arnold

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Don't underestimate the bargaining power that a prospective buyer would have for such a sword as there is so much uncertainty, and markets are supposed to make that reflected in price if the market is reasonably efficient.

Arnold has hit this one squarely on the head. My last several purchases have resulted in a "savings" of several thousand dollars off the original asking prices, based on my research on what the "correct" value of mumei blades should be.

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Just something that occurred to me, as we toss theories around, but it would be a very Japanese thing to do if a swordsmith were to make 'extra' swords even when orders were thin. These could be kept in oiled paper or an oil-filled katana pot, for retrieval and signing at a later date, but also equally to support the wife after his death, and his disciples or children too even, as a starter for them to sign and become famous, ie a sort of stock for a rainy day, or baton to the next generation.

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Hello:

 

 Following Nakahara I cannot understand why anyone would seek out ubu mumei, though some are doubtless bought with the intention of a deceptive promotion though the addition of a mei.

 

 

Sometimes they can make sense, an example.

 

I recently came across a papered ubu mumei Shinshinto Naokatsu 2nd katana, the work was just like Naokatsu 1st.

 

Signed papered Naokatsu 1st katana  = £6500 ++

 

If I remember correctly, the unsigned Naokatsu 2nd, I could have got for £2800, if id have had spare cash at that time I would have bought it.

 

All about the money, sometimes need to make exceptions.

 

Good signed Koto are out of my league financially, I am now looking at Shinshinto and even Shinsakuto, so much more info.

 

Something about a date on a sword, adds something special, always been partial to decent signed and dated Sue Bizen in the past.

 

As for Ubu mumei, lots of theories, my latest of which is that some are not signed, simply because they didn't need to be, simples. Two man job, busy forge, can see it being a proper chore.

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Perhaps I should lay (some of) my cards on the table.

 

Although I had a signed and papered Shinto Muneyoshi katana from Osaka, for some reason I let that one go. I have had two or three tanto since then of no great merit.

 

Since then my core 'collection' has reduced to one unusual Shinshinto tanto, signed, with Hozon papers, two short wakizashi both Mumei but papered to good Sue Bizen and Sue Soshu Koto smiths, one Sue Bizen wakizashi signed and dated and going off to Shinsa shortly, and recently one longer wakizashi completely Mumei, an unknown quantity.

 

Thus you can see I am rudderless, a man with no axe to grind. Well, no signed axe, and neutral on this subject, but very interested in the various points of view brought in above. Many thanks so far!

(Secretly of course, I am hoping for the best of all worlds, a priceless sword hidden in a nondescript koshirae...)

 

"Join the club!" do I hear you say?

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Following Nakahara I cannot understand why anyone would seek out ubu mumei, though some are doubtless bought with the intention of a deceptive promotion though the addition of a mei.

I have one ubu shinshinto katana. I bought it because it was/is a beautiful thing that the market in the USA studiously ignored for sufficient time because it was unsigned for the dealer to despair and offer it at a 50% reduction in price. 

As to why it is unsigned I have absolutely no idea although Pier's point about making several blades to either fulfil an order and choosing the best for a client or building a "starting stock" for the next generation,  seems a reasonable explanation.

I think we need to differentiate more clearly between ubu and suriage blades. I understand and agree to some extent with Nakahara regarding there being little justification for ubu mumei shinto or shinshinto blades (remembering Piers point as an exception) However the shortening of koto pieces is well documented and understood. Facts and fundementals offers some interesting ideas. My concern is that the explanations always seem to have a sinister or dishonest undertone. It is almost as if the writer has been badly burned in a deal at some point and now regards the industry as a whole as devious. While I am sure much of what he describes has and does go on it has been  my experience, albeit limited, that people in this field of study are genuine and honest.

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Hello:

 Paul is correct in saying that there is an undertone of implicit monkey business is some of the discussion of Nakahara with respect to suriage blades, sort of a "tell all" that might indicate some disappointing experiences encountered by him. However for those of us who have been in this game for too many years to remember I see that book not as unique but just another example of peeling back the wink wink divide between those "in the know" and all others. The stream of translations and inter-change in recent decades has allowed Westerners to learn more of what is behind the Japanese informational curtain, but that process has been of much longer standing. Other folks to have been critical of "established truth" that are no longer with us were such men as Albert Yamanaka, through his writings hardly the friend of the establishment in his day, and Yamada Tanseki a polisher, author and leading member of the Chuo Token Kai in the early 1970s. There are other contemporary examples, in Japan and abroad, who have similarly drawn fire. The truth is that there is a lot we don't know about the inner workings of the sword game, and in my opinion the contribution of Nakahara is net positive and I look forward to more.

 Arnold

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Hi Alex,

 

Would be interesting to see it. I have a papered Naohide (son of Naokatsu). Allegedly he made swords in the style of his father.

 

Since the Naohide is mumei, there is always doubt unless no reference work is at hand. 

 

Hi Martin, it was on a Japanese site back around last August, didn't last long before it sold.

 

He had a lot to live up to by way of his father, a good sword though, in ko chogi-midare.

 

Ive had a quick look, not there, but there are a few other examples.

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Piers, this is an interesting thread.  I feel your pain not having a katana.  Here are a few suggestions for your quest, which I assume is for a katana. These are not hard rules and they can all be challenged, but they are general statements that reflect my view.  I will assume that you would only buy a sword that you really love the look and feel of, so taste and collecting desires are not part of this.  These suggestions do reflect economic considerations, which in turn reflect collector's desires.

 

1.  A signed and ubu shinto or shinshinto katana is fine.  If it has NTHK or modern (non green) NBTHK papers, it is well priced and you love it, go for it. If it has no papers, try to pay a price commensurate with a gimei blade, unless you are very confident of its likelihood to paper.

2.  I generally avoid suriage signed shinto or shinshinto swords unless they are compelling in some way and the price is irresistible.

3.  Mumei or osuriage shinto or shinshinto are generally much less valuable and interesting to collectors unless they are drop-dead gorgeous and have papers to a notable smith.

4.  For koto blades, collectors are usually not that excited about mumei muromachi blades much after the Oei period, whether ubu or osuriage, unless they are compelling for some reason.

5.  For Nanbokucho blades, osuriage without papers is fine as long as it is beautiful and you love it - go for it.  If you can kantei to school, it can help you decide what it might be worth without papers.  Of course, things are clearer if it is in full polish and papered.

6.  Signed Nanbokucho and Kamakura blades tend to get more pricy, but if you can find one that is affordable and papered, go for it.  If they are not papered, I suggest that you approach them the same way as you would a signed shinto or shinshinto blade that is not papered.

 

I hope this is some help, because I am surely going to get a lot of flak for these very general points of view!  Cheers, Bob

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Bob,

 

I agree fully with what you have written, except one thing.

 

You wrote in 6) « Signed Nambokucho or Kamakura blades tend to be more pricey », no absolutelly not, they do not tend to be more pricey, they are out of range...:) for the common amateur...:)

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Quick update.

The latest Wakizashi will not be joining the other one for Shinsa. As I suspected, someone has used a chemical compound on a well-worn and over-polished Mumei, but ubu blade. The blade itself would seem to be mid-Edo, Seki work. Still, a metal tsunagi has to be better than a bamboo one. :glee:

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I think pretty much everyone would prefer a sword with signature if it would be possible. However it is not always possible. Then if it might be possible you have to think if you will accept bad condition with signature or good condition without signature.

 

Personally I'd go with signed sword in bad condition as I prefer the historical value signature gives in contrast to the artistic value that good condition brings to the table.

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  • 1 month later...

If i like the blade and the price it doesn't matter for me if it is mumei, authentic mei or gimei. 

For my collection, i didn't collect paper. 

 

But from my experience it is easier to sell a sword with mei, gimei or authentic the most nihonto enthusiast want to find out for themself because that is also fun to read and study. 

 

So i would say with mei is better, if its mumei and its papered thats a plus.

 

But this all is only if you will sell it later. 

 

To go with a blade for shinsa for a german collector is financial very expensive. I didn't know a cheap way for it.

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Thank you for those extra thoughts. I have noticed a tendency for a signature to add interest in the general marketplace, whether or not it is Gimei. The same holds true in the Netsuke world, accounting for so many added signatures. 

 

Chris. A cheap(er) way to Shinsa? Hmmm.... how do the various courier services compare, I wonder?

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First off the sword has to move me in some way , whether it be the workmanship of the smith or perhaps the mountings.

Then I look at price and the current exchange rate. there are very few for sale in country.

 

If it passes the first too then the nakago is the next consideration.

Mumei and ubu is fine , as I like them to be as the smith made them. 

Mei must have a paper as buying  from photo's I simply don't have the skills to make a decicision on gimei or not.

 

So the two exceptions to the nakago rule is a papered surige tachi and a signed gimei tanto.

the tanto was cheap and the workmanship is really good even though gimei.

The tachi I thought was better than it is but has some nice fittings as mounted as a katana.

 

Chris NZ

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