Information Sought On Wakizashi Please

[Kmad]

Hi

I just got this Wakizashi in a job lot of swords

I know nothing at all really about it I am not into it for much cash so no need to hold back on the comments if it’s all bad news.

The scabard is leather covered timber and there is a stud fastener to stop sword falling out, half popper is missing though

20 inch blade with a chip but it is not too deep, 2 mm or so . Blade has visible hamon for the full length not sure if it will show in pictures

Blade is in ok condition with some discoloration

The tang does have a signature but I think it has been cut at some stage in its life

There is a mark on the tsuba which is quiet clear hopefully I have photographed it right way round

Any chance the tang markings can tell you anything or the markings on the tsuba

 

I would love to have an approximate period of manafacture.

 

Kind regards and if any more pictures would help let me know

 

Ken

[Kmad]

Sorry, pictures of blade

[Geraint]

Dear Ken.

 

It's late but I think I see Bishu and the start of Osafune on the sword.  This would suggest a Bizen blade.  Read up on care of this.  The tsuba is interesting and appears to be signed Kamiyoshi.  Out of my comfort zone but go slow on this and careful, that's a good name.  Higo tsuba ko which goes well with the Higo style mounts on the tsuka.  Better pictures of the  rest if you can please.

 

If nothing else this is an interesting find, I think you did well here.

 

All the best.

[Grey Doffin]

Care & etiquette:

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Grey

[Kmad]

Hi Geraint, Grey

Thanks for information I will do nothing with the sword WRT cleaning, rest assured!

I will try and get better pictures tonight, hard to photograph with the i pad without a glare on the blade

The tsuba is 75mm in diameter by the way

Are there any specific areas that need to be photographed to help with identification?

 

Any idea on age of the sword?

Regards,

ken 

[Geraint]

Hi Ken.

 

If you can get a good overall shot of the whole blade, tang included that would help.  First impressions would be that it's probably late Muromachi.  Swords signed as this one starts are very common from Bizen smiths of this period.  Most of them are regarded as mass produced blades and do not rate very highly, as almost all the details of your blade are obscured it will be very hard to tell a great deal more about who made it.  Have a look here for a good example, https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-sukesada 

 

There are some members in Ireland who might chime in, that way you might get to show it to someone in hand for more help.

 

I also suggest you post photographs of the tsuba in the Tosogu section of the board for some informed opinions.

 

All the best.

[Robin]

Maybe nice to know...the paper (or what's left of it) on the tsuba, is/was there to get a good tight fit.

I guess the tsuba will now rattle a bit. A new piece of paper (acid free) will solve that.

 

Robin

[Brian]

I think that may be a good tsuba. Pete? Curran? Marius?

[Kmad]

Hi all

Thanks for interest, I might as well be looking in a bush as seeing what is a nice sword or not so I appreciate the help.

I collect Indian swords and imperial German bayonets but I liked the look of this sword. Amazing to think it is so old and in relative good condition.

It does look like paper that is atached to the tsuba alright, but I will not try and remove so don’t worry.

I have taken some more pictures you can see the few delaminations and the chip in the blade, it was this damage that enabled me to talk down the price

There was. No peg in the handle either just a brass screw.

What I can see of scabard neck looks nice as well but it is covered in a leather outer scabbard which is laced closed, I think if I tried to open the lace it would tear. Might there be anything of interest under the leather.

All the best

Ken

Ps an officers type 98 sword came in the same job lot but it is a standard enough piece so I do not think it will add much to the discussion

[kissakai]

Might the tsuba be Nishigaki?

They used similar themes that have a 2D form

Is the outside of the rim smooth or is bumpy?

 

[growlingbear]

The tsuba is signed Kamiyoshi - not got any books to check the signature.

 

James

[Kmad]

Hi

Here is a picture of the side of the tsuba

And a close up of the blade nick

Thanks

Ken

[kissakai]

Hi Ken

The edge on your tsuba isa the same as my (Higo) Nishigaki example so that is my guess

An earlier discussion:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/9704-nishigaki-school-tsuba/

 

Another link with a nice example at the end

https://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/beta/exhibit/3QLyDIAlN6VZLg

 

I'll just wait for someone to correct me

[Curran]

From what I can see, there appears a faint partial signature on this short sword. Maybe someone else can help with that.

The blade looks like someone used it to chop the hedges a few times.

 

The fittings:  The tsuba, fuchi, and kashira all look Higo.

The tsuba is signed Kamiyoshi and looked very Kamiyoshi school to me from design, dimensions, and carving. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then probably a duck.

If someone wants to try and pin it on a particular smith, maybe they can. Without a signature or the punch marks used by some, I would just leave it at Kamiyoshi school for now.

 

Of the Higo schools, there are the 4 original ones and Kamiyoshi being the +1 added when they thought the Hayashi school was dying out.

Given the resurgence of the Hayashi school, I regard the Kamiyoshi as the sort of spare tire of the bunch- producing mostly in the 1800s as a background to the other Higo.

I confess that Kamiyoshi school is the one I tend to avoid, as I am not crazy about the 1800s works unless the design interests me.

Still, this is a nice design and is pleasant to me.

 

I hesitated to comment yesterday because condition is rough. Explaining this sort of news is rarely welcome.

A very good condition one with papers can sell for $1000 or so:   http://www.nihonto.com/rh460/

          This one has both patina and rust issues that it needs such Time and Tender care, I would pay $100-125 for it as a project to keep my hands busy.

Even then, the patina might require artificial help that I am not willing to do. It is sort of a gamble whether or not it will restore.

 

I think this is an example of the sort of beater sword that sometimes comes into a sword show and gets broken up:  someone buys the blade and the fittings get sold off individually.

The fuchi and kashira don't look a pair to me, though the fuchi might be more interesting. I cannot really see the menuki.

 

As I started with, maybe someone can read the blade signature and comment on whether the blade itself is savable.

[vajo]

Curran really 100 - 120 Dollar? Or did you meant 1.000 - 1.200 Dollar. For me it looks like a very fine piece. I would be very happy to have it in my collection.

[Curran]

In its current state, yes I meant $100-125.

To me it looks like a lot of work, and some of the thin patina points concern me.

Assuming it survives, then there is the dilemma of whether or not to spend 6 to 9 months papering it and paying an extra $225-$300 for the Japan roundtrip, agent, and paper fees.

If they say "Kodai Kamiyoshi" you might just want to throw out the papers.

 

If you want to pay Ken $1000-1200 for it, then you guys should get together soon.

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

Added:

You wouldn't rather Fred Weissberg's excellent condition NBTHK Hozon papered one?

It has been sitting there a while. For $1000, I am sure it could be on your doorstep as fast as German customs will let it pass through.

[kissakai]

Hi Ken

As Ken didn't ask about prices it would appear to me this just muddies the waters

Has anyone opinions on the sword?

One of my swords did have a nice saya under the leather wrapping but it's not worth trying to force if off (mine came off easily)

There was a post a couple of weeks ago where a NMB has done wonders with tiding up his tsuba so some work can be done yourself

 

Price is so difficult, for example I have Heianjo Daisho (the Daisho is a stretch) for $475 in great condition

Every one who's seen it has liked it but it hasn't sold and I have no idea why!

[Curran]

Grev:

 

The sword looks to be signed faintly "Bishu ?" and the rest cut off.

It looks to be in the 50-60cm range, making it a long wakizashi or a greatly shortened sword.

I'd leave it to others to debate whether it can be /or should be/ restored.

 

Again, I hesitated to comment on this thread- largely because the value of the last Higo school (aka. Kamiyoshi of the 1800s) is very debatable.

Someone like Vajo might feel very differently. If he wants to pay Ken for it, then maybe he can restore it.

 

My current opinion of it is that it has largely to do with condition.

It is a pretty tsuba in poor [but not 'dead'] condition.

As calming things to do when stuck working at a desk waiting on things, my wife sometimes knits. I sometimes pull up a magnifier and work on tsuba.

This Kamiyoshi is probably worth saving, but it is going to take a fair bit of work.

[TheGermanBastard]

120 USD will buy you a crap Tsuba on most occassions - and this tsuba is NO crap as even a well known idiot like me can see at first glance.

 

If anybody does have more tsuba of that type at 120 bucks I'd be happy to sell my stocks and buy them in the hundreds .. you should sit down, clean it with some ivory ... if you decide to sell it, you may want to conseign it with some good dealer like for exameple Andy Quirt of nihonto.us whose site has allready been mentioned in this topic. Andy is one of the best places to buy quality Tosugu and always honest in his dealings.

 

The sword is solid but probably Muromachi around 1500 - 1550 ... Suriage. Blades signed Bishu are often inferior to the ones signed Bizen ... but this has of course to be evaluated on a case by case basios. The nicks are none fatal but deep enough to reduce the width to a significant degree. Also there is one Ware. I'm not sure if I would get it polished. Probably not. Atleast I would want to keep a tight budget on it and make sure not to put a Mukansa priced polish on it. The Chohji Hamon will probably look nice.

[vajo]

Take a look in this thread.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12457-higo-tsuba/

 

[Brian]

Fact is the tsuba is a better find than the wakizashi which is average.
Curran (and many advanced collectors) would pay less for an average Higo tsuba than others that maybe have yet to get their first one...everyone is entitled to their opinion. Fact is, on the open market the tsuba is likely several hundred $'s.
That is a nice bonus when it is the sword you were after.
No more debating the tsuba price...that isn't what we are about and it is all going to be opinion anyways. Feel free to focus on anything else except the price.

[Kmad]

Hi all

Thank you all for comments and taughtful postings.

I am an interloper on this forum, just passing through, the complexity of your study is amazing and a lot of you have a knowledge base that is emence, and you give knowledge freely which is again appreciated

 

The sword in question was only purchased on a whim and cost was minimal. I am not here to just learn raw value of an item, but to learn what it is, I don’t mind the money conversation so I take no offense at this line of conversation.

 

I enjoy the acquisition of knowledge and learning what makes a good sword a great sword.

To tell the truth I am amazed I have a sword that is approx 450 years old and I thank you for telling me this and ensuring I do not do any butchery of cleaning on it. I will never get it polished, I probably will sell it eventually but no rush. It will reside with fellow Asian swords from India so it won’t be completely lost, it actually is a nice addition.

 

The tsuba is wasted on me as I do not appreciate it for being a work of art and this I will probably sell on as someone else will get a lot more value from it than I

 

Again thanks again and if I turn up something else I will be back, the same source as where I got this sword may have more Japanese swords and knives so I have a bit more knowledge and might acquire something to show to you all.

 

Kind regards to you all

 

Ken

[raaay]

 

Hi ken

 

have you tried contacting the Irish Token sword Society , you maybe able to get some good advice or help close to you !

[Curran]

Ken-

 

not quite the same, but a papered example for reference:

http://www.kusanaginosya.com/SHOP/410.html

[Kmad]

Hi Curran

Thanks for that, i don’t see an obvious signature on the one you have put up. Maybe it is there just I don’t see it.

Does this matter or is it all about style of work.

 

Basic question here, is the one I have signed to an individual or to a school and what age are we talking about.

 

Cheers

 

Ken

[Curran]

Hi Ken,

 

Kamiyoshi is a school name.

PM sent.