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Tokubetsu Curiosity


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After going through that whole discussion starting page 1, now i'm just dying to know what is going on. Assuming i read all correctly, OP shared sword, but after guarantee from Aoi, didn't pass at all? Seems weird, thought it was a nice blade.

 

I'll be waiting for an update..

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Reason behind that? Gimei?

 

 

NihontoCollector, on 15 Dec 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:snapback.png

Well, I am suspicious about this blade but them guranteeing it will pass Hozon should take away any concerns as you should be able to return it ... however I am not convinced it will get Hozon.

 

 

 

NihontoCollector, on 15 Dec 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:snapback.png

The Aoi Art owner is excellent at his drawings. A true artist. Sometimes his drawings can get even too artistic - while we must keep in mind that such a kind of drawing is always a piece of art thus personal interpretation like an expressionistic painting ...well, maybe not such loose thing though :)

 

However there must be a reason why the master decided to stop his work all at a sudden. Cutting off one of his ears might be an explanation but a rather unlikely one ... so I go with what I believe to see ... offering a far easier and ugly explanation: a dipping of Hamon. I can not say for sure but think it is dipping of the edge in several places. If the Hamachi was more gone I would be more certain ... but in this case my eyes, the drawing, a missing paper and the very low price make me think there is a bummer.

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Guest Rayhan

Well done NC, but we can also assume that you knew what it was and therefore drew a conclusion and decided to let it all play out or that there is some substantial evidence to alert us as to why it did not pass.

 

I'm still firm in the fact it is a good sword so any news on an exact reason for the fail?

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I'm still firm in the fact it is a good sword so any news on an exact reason for the fail?

 

If the temper runs off the edge in several places I would not consider it a good sword (any longer) ...

 

but we can also assume that you knew what it was and therefore drew a conclusion and decided to let it all play out or that there is some substantial evidence to alert us as to why it did not pass.

 

 

Sorry, I do not understand what you mean to say. Can you please explain it some more. Thank you.

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Hello all, I was not given any specifics at first and had to ask what the shinsa team wrote. I received an answer, however I asked in such a manner "for my education only what was written by the shinsa team?" that he may have interpreted to mean in private and told me in confidence. So I am somewhat hesitant to write more. To remain neutral just in case I will say that it did not fail for fatal flaws. He has offered a refund on the sword and was kind enough to offer a refund for the kankyuto I puchased to fill the koshirae. I am not quite sure how to proceed. He already has my money and I could ask him if there is something he can recommend (and both parties can be happy). As I am sure he is just as upset about the result as I am and maybe he has something in the back or will offer a discount on another item. Not sure if asking him about this would be offensive or not. Or I can keep the kankyuto as it is nice and has a hamon, have not seen many with a hamon (not an expert though). Only issue there is if I purchase a sword later that has everything then that in my eyes will be somewhat wasted money that could go towards getting a nicer sword.

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Guest Rayhan

Agreed, you should either get your money back or get a credit note for a better sword from Aoi. Generally if it didn't pass Hozon Aoi will help you recover.

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So much trouble. I wonder why you let have done AOI to make hozon for this sword if he guarantees it? Maybe the shinsa team in Japan have better eyes?  ;-)

As Luis wrote, the oshigata painting did not fit really to the blade photo or it fits and i did not see what he sees in the blade. 

 

What i learned from this thread? If the seller guarantees for something, let the seller do it. It spares a lot of money.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Rayhan

In my emails basically the NBTHK has said its gimei but in need of further investigation into the smith and his mei but now that they have rejected it once they (Aoi) are prompted to say gimei possibility if asked why it failed (i asked if i could buy this and get the investigations done in an effort to regain face) but Aoi said there is a big risk due to the NBTHK's reaction. If anyone wants to help with the research I'm open to buying it and if we succeed then we can sell it again but i don't read Kanji very well at all so need help. Any takers for a joint effort?

 

Tsuruta sama believes the smith existed, NBTHK said they couldn't verify so they stamped Gimei

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Well, Rayhan, that is a laudable endeavour by you. But let us dissect this a bit:

- the sword is signed and dated, so the mei can be pinpointed to a specific generation. The gimei wak is dated 10th year of Kyoohoo era, or 1725.

- if generations up to sixth are documented, there must be a verifiable way to document those and link them to generations

- in fact, sandai Masanaga (which this blade purports to be by) seems fairly well documented as you can see from Markus Sesko’s entry below:

 

MASANAGA (政長), 3rd gen., Shōtoku (正徳, 1711-1716), Ōshū – “Ōshū Aizu-jū Masanaga” (奥州会津住政長),

“Ōshū Aizu-jū Miyoshi Masanaga” (奥州会津住三善政長), real name Miyoshi Ichikyūemon (三善市九衛門), he

changed his first name later to Tōshirō (藤四郎), son of the 2nd gen. Masanaga, some works are equal in quality to his

fathers, he died on the 22nd day of the sixth month Kyōhō eleven (享保, 1726), his successor succeeded as 5

Nagamichi (長道), chū-saku

 

All of this makes me think that the NBTHK actually has a very good idea about sandai Masanaga, his typical characteristics and his mei. Therefore, my interpretation is that there NBTHK judged to be inaccurate as opposed to not being sure which is implied in “Tsuruta sama believes the smith existed, NBTHK said they couldn't verify so they stamped Gimei”.

 

By the way, one final comment on the chiselling - the date /ura depth of tagane and style seem a bit different from the omote side. It might be my sight and the lighting etc but that is just my impression.

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I will paraphrase my understanding of the issue. The shinsa team neither said gimei or authentic. Rather, more study would be required. I would have been happy to have them holding onto it and coming to a concluison of authentic or not. 

 

The next parts are pure speculation - given others and myself have searched far and wide for examples of this Mei to no avail, it is possible this shinsa team has not run across the mei or didnt have a reference handy. Furthermore what I beleive may have happened given the date of the sword being ~1yr from DOD, it is possible the smith could still wheel a hammer but not a smaller chisle and his student signed... Just speculation at this point though.

 

I beleive this smith is fujisjiro rated, hawley and the other big one which escapes my mind at this point. So there must be an oshigata or picture somewhere.

 

Even with the unknown... Not a bad price and still beautiful Hada, with the goodies that were added a decent package. 

 

I was going to wait until the auction was done to see what some thought about kantei assuming the mei was removed... 

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Guest Rayhan

I think if I were to buy it one of the first things i woukd get done is (this is on this case only, guys and gals reading this, do not do things like what i am about to suggest as it is not economically sound. I am proposing it in this case only.) Re-polish that Hamon all the way as it is a very perplexing sight and could cause confusion. The Hada looks fine. Michael is soundly correct on the mei being light in certain areas also creating more risk.

 

So should we try?

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Interesting, Ooitame

 

Just spent 5 min going through the electronic indexes I have on my iPhone and found this reference to the Toko Taikan entry:

S - Masanaga (III) - p599, MAS1588

 

I do not have that Taikan but perhaps someone else has looked it up to see if there is an oshigata?

 

Most references indeed stop at the nidai as the skill level or perceived importance or quality etc must have decreased thereafter....

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