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Identification Naginata.

nektoalex

By nektoalex
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TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

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Hello Paul, well the Sugata, color of steel and Condition lead me to believe it is a rather late Shishinto periode piece. I am having a hard time to nail it down in words. It is just after having looked at and handle sufficient blades that you get the feeling for it. if we can see the Nagako it will be a way easier call ... but just looking at the images that is my impression.

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Ray Singer Grand Master

Ray Singer

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Shorter naginata with deep curvature in the monouchi is typical for the Edo period, seen in both Shinto and Shinshinto. From the look of the tsuka, I would guess that it has a short, ubu nakago (rather than an osuriage one). The naginata-hi are simplistic, also pointing to later work.

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paulb Grand Master

paulb

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Hi Luis

thanks for coming back. I tend to agree with you regarding shape and condition although as Ray says the exagerated shape seen here started earlier and carried on through. Colour is tricky, I struggle to identify colour in steel unless it is fairly extreme but for sure I wouldn't risk it based on a screen image unless it was on a very high end calibrated screen.

I also think the hi have a basic look to them.

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Jean

Jean

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The notion of dark steel (identification/kantei point to Northern kuni) is tricky and can’t in no way be ascertained by looking at pictures, be cause as mentioned my friend Paul, it depends on light.

 

You have to study several blades side by side at the beginning to be able to absorb this notion and establish a scale of colour steel. This is a relative notion and that must not be forgotten: it is dark steel compared to.... this notion is only valid for Koto. In Shinto times, steel travelled (on its little legs) and become homogeneous throughout the country.

 

So darker steel in late Shinto or Shinshinto lets me skeptical...

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Jean

Jean

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Jacques,

 

You should stop reacting at my posts, it is becoming an obsession (a boring one) which leads you to quote me and add a stupid example as proof.

 

You should read late Jean d’Ormesson « dislike is bad for health »

 

As everyone knows, Yasutsugu is late Shinto/Shinshinto ????

 

The Yasutsugu (first generation) began forging still in Koto times. Don’t try to biaise as usual the discussion.

 

Here is an article which settles things concerning the steel in Shinto and Shinshinto times:

 

http://jssh.org/shinto.html#/3

 

So, goodbye the theory of dark steel in late Shinto, Shinshinto.

 

To come back to Yasutsugu, we can’t say that it is a kantei point of Yasutsugu (perhaps in its youth), for to be a kantei point, it must be a constant in the smith forging which is not the case, taking into account the number of blades made of namban tetsu. All can be said is that some of his blades have the dark steel colour of northern provinces.

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TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

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The notion of dark steel (identification/kantei point to Northern kuni) is tricky and can’t in no way be ascertained by looking at pictures, be cause as mentioned my friend Paul, it depends on light.

 

You have to study several blades side by side at the beginning to be able to absorb this notion and establish a scale of colour steel. This is a relative notion and that must not be forgotten: it is dark steel compared to.... this notion is only valid for Koto. In Shinto times, steel travelled (on its little legs) and become homogeneous throughout the country.

 

So darker steel in late Shinto or Shinshinto lets me skeptical...

 

Given perfect images you can probably make a perfect assumption. Given poor images it will be a poor assumption. Word on this. Then we need to base our assumption on what we have.

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Jean

Jean

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In fact Luis, I owe you an apologize, Jacques is becoming contagious, I did not read your posts correctly; after rereading them, I see that the dark side of the steel was just a remark and not a kantei point. In fact it is due to the pictures lightening :)

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Jacques D. Grand Master

Jacques D.

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Jean 

 

Kunitsuna (国綱), 1st gen., Keian (慶安, 1648-1652), Echizen – „Sagami no Kami Fujiwara Kunitsuna“ (相模守藤原国綱), „Echizen-jū Sagami no Kami Fujiwara Kunitsuna“ (越前住相模守藤原国綱), first name „Taemon“ (多兵衛), Echizen-Shimosaka school, student of the 1st gen. Kanetane (兼植), he worked later also in Edo, itame mixed with masame and ji-nie, the steel is blackish, chū-suguha or notaremidare in ko-nie-deki Kunitsuna 

 

Mitsuhiro (光広), Genroku (元禄, 1688-1704), Echizen – „Ise no Daijō Shimosaka Mitsuhiro“ (伊勢大掾下坂光広), Shimosaka school, itame mixed with masame, blackish jigane, suguha with compact nioiguchi, he signed with a rather thick chisel in a barely legible manner composed of short and thick chisel strokes Mitsuhiro 

 

Nobutomo (信友), 4th gen., Kanbun (寛文, 1661-1673), Kaga – „Gashū Kanazawa-jūnin Fujiwara Nobutomo“ (賀州金沢住人藤原信友), first name „Hei´emon“ (平右衛門), son of the 3rd gen. Nobutomo, blackish jigane, dense ko-itame with fine ji-nie, saka-chōji-midare in nioideki with ko-nie and many ashi 

 

 

Yoshifusa (吉房), Enpō (延宝, 1673-1681), Echizen – „Tanba no Kami Yoshifusa“ (丹波守吉房), „Echizen-jū Tanba no Kami Fujiwara Yoshifusa“ (越前住丹波守藤原吉房), he lived in Echizen´s Fukui (福井) and signed his name in early years with the characters (義房), blackish jigane, itame mixed with masame and ji-nie, the hamon is a gunome-midare or notare with gunome in ko-nie-deki 

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Jean

Jean

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Just to add, as the French saying goes: A swallow in the sky does not mean It is Spring time. You will always find a counter example but not thousands as in the Koto times. For example the 4th generation Nobutomo is the only one mentioned with blackish jigane among 11 generations...

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J Reid Proficient

J Reid

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Back to topic... the Naginata that Marius posted is good for comparing to the other naginata in discussion. Funny enough they kinda look similar. The one Marius posted looks mid-late Edo (hard to tell for sure because of the lit up patina on Nakago).. Pretty short and beefy. Sugata is almost a balance in length in Nagasa X Nakago. The original posted naginata had a longer Nagasa and shorter nakago ..slightly slimmer Sugata.. Id think the OP naginata is older (earlier Edo) than Marius's and actually slightly suriage. All speculation and uneducated without seeing OP nakago. Jean, I agree, when comparing a Koto blade with "a good example of dark steel" vs a shinto or newer, it is obvious that the steel of old swords is considerably darker. Thinner and lighter blades too. Shinto steel is "generally" lighter in colour as opposed to Koto. Jean and Jacques.. exceptions to all rules right? Occasionally there is shinto blades with "darker" steel and koto with "brighter" steel. Jean is correct about the transition of steel quality from Koto to shinto and I'm sure Jacques is right too about yasutsugu .. didn't he and other shinto smiths experiment by sourcing old steel to use when making their swords? Just my Thoughts .. oh and I agree with you,Luis.. you start to develop a "sixth sword sense" haha.

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Marius Grand Master

Marius

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Josh,

 

Thanks for your comment. I have posted this naginata to show that there are always exceptions in nihonto. Of course, I agree the naginata shown by Alexandr is mid to late Edo. But this does not mean that a pronounced saki zori in a naginata proves it is of a later make. 

 

The blade in my photograph is an early Kamakura naginata, displayed among other swords in the Futarasan shirne in Nikko. Attached is the full picture, with the nagaye of this blade. 

 

Many early naginata seemed to have a strong curvature. Have a look at the Heiji Monogatarki Emaki (Heiji scroll).

post-221-0-85617100-1512638663_thumb.jpg

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Shugyosha Grand Master

Shugyosha

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Hi Luis,

 

In England we have a saying that "rules are for the guidance of the wise and for the governance of fools". I'm not suggesting that you are a fool (whereas in Nihonto terms I certainly am) but learning the rules is only the beginning... :beer:  :beer:  :)

 

Best,

John

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  • 2 weeks later...
Geraint Grand Master

Geraint

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Or more complicated.  Markus Sesko lists another smith signing with this mei as second generation Kanbun shinto.  Also here, https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/meisearch?page=157&order=title&sort=desc&field_smith_signature_value_op=contains&field_smith_signature_value=

 

The balance of probability would suggest the later smith but you will need to satisfy yourself about which one it is, or send it to shinsa.

 

Either way it's a nice piece to own.

 

All the best.

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