Jump to content

I'm Poor And Have Questions


Recommended Posts

Hello, I've been a member here for years but haven't posted since 2011, I think.

 

I have simply not had the income that allows me to be able to afford putting thousands of dollars into full koshirae for the few swords I own, which are all in shirasaya or none at all.

 

Well, I do have one tired old katana that has partial fittings.  The saya is probably repairable but the only thing I have for it other than that is the raw bamboo core of the tsuka with its same inset panels.

That appears to be in solid condition and it might give me a reason to attempt to learn the art of tsuka ito wrapping,  but I'd need at least the fuchi and kashira to even do that.

 

Other than that, this sword has no tsuba, seppa, habaki, fuchi, koshira, menuki, or ito. Nothing. 

 

I'm almost tempted to spend a LITTLE money to buy the "antique" fittings that can be found at low cost on ebay.

 

I am assuming that most, maybe all of them, are fake.  Would that assumption be correct?

 

I don't mind if they're "fake" as long as they fit, look OK from a reasonable distance, and don't cost much.  They can be replaced with more authentic fittings when I can afford to do so.

 

I am even wondering if there's any chance that one of their Chinese made complete tsukas could possibly be worth the 20 dollar price tag on them.  If the core is made OK and the same' is real

and the wrap job is halfway decent, the cast/plated fuchi and kashira could be replaced.  But it's obviously a crapshoot as to whether or not it would even fit the nakago.

 

Yes, I'd love to invest in real fittings but financially speaking that option isn't available to me right now.   This is not a poor man's hobby but here I am anyway.  

 

Chris

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris:

 

In my experience, I have learned like many others that this hobby has room for all types and levels of collectors. We tend to collect for many different reasons. I have always believed that one should collect at the level they feel most comfortable at, whether it be at the $200-$1,000 level price range, or at those price levels most of us will never be able to afford. Some find themselves collecting quantity, and some collect only quality. Where one fits into that huge collector spectrum is up to each of us. Many of us have purchased swords for a relatively cheap price, and then later traded or sold the sword to upgrade to a better sword. It sounds like you may have a few "project" blades that you may have purchased right, and that you now want to marry to modern or very inexpensive koshirae or fittings. This is probably fine, if the blade is not worth the cost of a restorative polish, and if you ultimately just want to use the sword for display only, or as a non-tamashigiri iaido training blade. However, I have always found it more costly in the long run to "marry" and piece together a koshirae, than to just trade or sell a project blade or blades off to acquire one sword with a complete koshirae and a better overall blade. It is often very difficult to get back your investment costs for building up a koshirae for a "project" level blade if you later want to sell the sword.

 

If you want to upgrade your current collection, you might want to consider "parlaying" the blades you currently own into a single mounted sword of better quality than any of the individual blades you currently own. I and many collectors with modest or limited means have been able to build a rather respectable though small collection over time. Have you considered trying to trade or sell what you have for one better quality complete sword in your collecting comfort zone? You might be surprised with the outcome.

 

Regards,

Bill E. Sheehan (Yoshimichi)     

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris,

just to underline what Franco wrote: There are really cheap, but good KOSHIRAE/TOSOGU parts for sale, IF you know to find them. You are obviously not in a hurry, so why don't you get informed first about this (vast) subject of NIHONTO and buy on a better knowledge basis?

We have a KODOGU orphanage forum here on NMB where you could trade or purchase authentical parts for very little money! A simple but genuine TSUBA might not ruin you, if you can identify it.

By the way, a TSUKA core is not made of bamboo! Know your stuff, NIHONTO is an amazing world!

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris, your question begs more questions. The major one being, what do you want from your swords? If you want to own a NIHONTO then SHIRASAYA is surely fine, and what a lot of collectors house their blades in any way. If you are "POOR" and want to have a display sword or "wall hanger", buy a nice Chinese replica that looks good, you can swing it around, and have fun with it. BUT marrying up a blade with dubious fitting furniture would in my opinion actually detract from your sword.

There are things I would like, and don't get because I cant afford them.

So the moral of my story is get what you can afford, and be happy with it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is really generous, but we should see the respective blade first, see the condition and have measurements. There is still some time until Chrismas!

And Christian, you will look fine on a sledge with a white beard, a red coat and jingle bells! :glee: Do you like reindeer?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laugh! :) !

 

i but! was not the first herein!

 

Chris, Ian and me, i do count till yet... and i do see you equally.... :beer:- ( of course! only if you like!)

 

(No!- :laughing: ....i do certainly prefer Angus then to eat reindeer- LOL! ;-) !)

 

let us all work this out....

 

each one of us have the individual email adresses, so far...

 

it is now depending on pictures we all do need.

 

me

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK,  first,  thanks for the generous offers of assistance.

 

I have decided on a small change of plans.  I'll leave the katana for later because it's in serious need of a polish, and actually I believe that I bought it from a member of this forum a good six or seven years ago.

It is tired, it has been polished many times, the hamachi is very small now,  and though this may cause some people to question my judgement and/or sanity,  it is one of my own projects to polish. 

 

I have polished a few swords,  and I've done it as well as I have been able.    In every case the sword in question was one that was of minimal value or not an authentic original Japanese blade.

 

For iai I purchased a Paul Chen/Hanwei sword and it arrived with an edge as sharp as a bar of soap.   I immediately gave it a full polish which was two weeks of hard work and honestly it came out quite well.

 

As has been said, not all swords that need a polish are worthy of a polish.  It's those that I will polish, and no others.

 

Setting that matter aside,  the wakizashi and tanto that I have decided I wish to put into full mounts, and hopefully as a matched pair, eventually,  are good enough that I've done nothing to them aside from some

finger stone work to bring out the hamon which was quite invisible from having been cleaned many times since their last polish.    When I got them they were almost free of rust but the gentleman whom I bought

them from had never maintained them and it is a blessing that they survived for some four decades in his air conditioned house, always in shirasaya, and made it through very nearly perfectly untouched by any rust.

 

But there was a little tiny bit of rust, so applying hazuya to them is not a decision I regret.   I was able to bring out the majority of the activity of the blade in the wakizash, and it turns out to have a very lively hamon

though I'm not sure I'm ready to describe it in proper terminology.

 

This wakizashi has an overall length of 24 and 3/4 inch with a 5 inch nakago measured from the munemachi.

 

It is unsigned. I have not attempted to obtain an evaluation and attribution for it.

 

The tanto that came with it is in hira-zukuri style and I posted about it back in 2011. 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7576-interesting-large-tantosmall-wakopinions-please/

It is very large for a tanto, with a 14 and 1/4" blade measured from tip to munemachi. Technically I guess it's a wakizashi at that size.

 

Both the tanto and the wakizashi are in shirasaya that are made in the same style, oval in profile with flat side facets.   I believe both shirasaya were made by the same craftsman due to their identicality,

and I believe that the tanto and the wakizashi were last polished together as well since their condition and age of their polishes appears to be much the same.    It is possible that maybe both blades were even

made by the same smith but that is pure speculation.

 

 

 

Those of you who have been kind enough as to suggest that you may have something to help me,  please feel free to contact me at my email address, which is

cmjohnson@cfl.rr.com

 

I live in Florida, United States.

 

 

 

 

 

wak_hamon.jpg

 

wak_full_right.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To answer questions that I did not address in the post above,   I have a sufficiently serious interest in Japanese swords and all the many varieties of craftsmanship that go into every aspect of them,  from the

smelting of the raw ore into tamahagane and the forging of the blade and its polishing,  to the minutiae of the making of every element of all the koshirae, that my limitations imposed upon the learning and

the collecting are all about time and money and not any lack of interest or desire to learn.

 

I have no interest in wall hangers.   I appreciate these old swords for exactly what they are:  Surviving weapons of war,  instruments of war, and works of art by the virtue of the craftsmanship that goes into them,

and for their historical value.

 

I would like to present each one that I have in its best presentation possible,  acknowledging that my budgetary constraints do conspire against that goal.

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well,  I own exactly one Chinese and four Japanese swords.  One of which appears to be a mere hantanto, and its workmanship is so poor that even though the spine of the blade is straight,  the edge itself wanders off center

as you move across its length.  Not by a little!  It's quite a twist.  There's actually a twist to the main portion of the blade between the hat and the  shinogi but not between the shinogi to the mune!   That one was a good first choice for learning how to polish something, since it was really about as worthless as a sword is likely to be.   It is used for cutting practice on occasion.  So it serves a purpose.   It has cut many a 20 centimeter thick banana tree trunk in my back yard.

 

 

The three that I call  "real" Japanese swords,  well, the katana that is so old and tired may be up for sale after I put forth my best effort to polish it.  It's a project I work on in the evenings when I have time for it.  When that time comes

should I choose to sell it, it will be sold with full disclosure that it's my polish work and nobody else's and I do not have any professional training.    I do not think I could ask any more than 500 US dollars for it no matter how good it might come out. 

 

The remaining two, the wakizashi and the tanto, actually I rather like them and consider them to be my first truly "real" swords and just don't wish to part with them as of yet.    They are the ones I wish to have fully mounted,

if that can be done within my very limited budget.    

 

And the Paul Chen sword, I have a use for that and it's iai.   I doubt it'd be worth what I paid for it to anyone here anyway so I've never considered selling it.

 

So I really don't have enough swords that I'd consider selling any at this particular time.

 

I would, however, be interested in hearing any opinions regarding the wakizashi.  I have no knowledge of its origin aside from its having been kept as a pair with the tanto for at least the last several decades.  Anything beyond that is very much a guess.

 

I can post additional photos of it at any time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please, please don't do this. It would be better to sell the sword to someone who will have the sword properly vetted by a trained polisher, to determine exactly what it is and whether it will sustain a restoration. Suggest selling it as is, rather than trying to restore it yourself.

 

The three that I call "real" Japanese swords, well, the katana that is so old and tired may be up for sale after I put forth my best effort to polish it. It's a project I work on in the evenings when I have time for it. When that time comes

should I choose to sell it, it will be sold with full disclosure that it's my polish work and nobody else's and I do not have any professional training.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guarantee that collectors would be more willing to purchase in as-found condition, than if the same sword is put through an amateur polish. You unfortunately are not doing either yourself or the sword any favors by restoring it.

 

I do not think I could ask any more than 500 US dollars for it no matter how good it might come out.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That sword was photographed on a foam rubber pad. Not on a concrete or hard surface.  I take care of these things.

 

As for polishing, how many times have I seen the comment "That sword is not worth polishing" when I browse the forum? It's only swords in that category that I would touch.

 

 

Please put aside all thoughts of files, sandpaper, and wire brushes.  I am not stupid, ignorant, or a fool.  People who think they can "restore" a sword with files, sandpaper, wire brushes,

etc, who have never heard of the word "togish" or "uchigomori" are the kind that I will ask, in the strongest polite terms possible, to please STOP before they do harm to something that

they do not understand or have any concept of its potential value.    It costs nothing to make photos of the blade, post them for this forum to look at, and get an informed opinion as to

whether or not what they have is junk or a possible treasure.   I encourage people to do exactly that in those rare cases where I encounter someone who has an old sword their grandfather

brought back from the war, hanging in the garden shed,  not having been maintained in 70 years.

 

The tools I use are the right ones.  Artificial Japanese waterstones,  arato, binsuido, komo nagura, chu nagura, and after that, I have a small assortment of good quality genuine

uchigomori hato and jito stones.   Hardened steel burnishing needle for the shinogi ji.  Fingerstones hazuya and jizuya.   Those stones represent a fair investment.

But there's no file, there is no sandpaper, there is no wire brush.   Set your mind at ease about that.

 

The nakago is never touched.  It is a historical record, not to be cleaned, sanded, de-rusted, or polished.

 

Please set your concerns aside.  I will assure you that I'm not even looking for another candidate to polish. 

 

 

Now, returning to the subject at hand,  I previously asked if I am correct in my assumption that most of the "antique" fittings found on, for example, ebay,  are likely to be recently made fakes.

 

It seems that some of those sellers have more "antique" habakis and other koshirae than I would reasonably expect, and at prices that just seem a bit on the low side to me.  So I suspect

they're recently made fakes but I'm asking for your opinion on that.

 

I'll post additional photos of the wakizashi but I don't even think I have a metric measuring stick so I may have to go get one.

 

I'll do the best I can with the photos and give some measurements, too.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Measurements:

 

12.7 cm nakago, total length is just under 63 cm.

 

25.13mm width of nakago from hamachi to munemachi

27.51 width of blade just outside the machi

20.90 width of blade at yokote

13.12 sori

6.54 maximum thickness of nakago

 

Working on getting some good photos.  It's a challenge when you don't have studio lighting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for polishing, how many times have I seen the comment "That sword is not worth polishing" when I browse the forum? It's only swords in that category that I would touch.

 

***** on a crutch. I've been trying to stay off NMB.

I was trying to ignore this thread, but had it emailed to me several times.

 

-CM:  I get it. You think from the wak "not being worth a polish" that it validates polishing it.

From what I can see in the hamon of the wak, you should stop right there and show or sell to someone confident in kantei.

That one might warrant a polish, or it might *not* economically warrant it-  but is better left as it is and appreciated by someone like me into that school.

If from the school that I think, personally I'd rather it be left as it is for now.

 

I understand your logic and your approach to be cautious and not muck it up.

I'm here only to stress:  "not worth polishing" certainly does not = "okay to give a respectful amateur polish"

You're here in Florida. Hopefully you are near someone that can give the wak a look, or at least abstain until the Tampa show and get thee there on a daytrip.

Show it to Ray someday in Miami or Bob Benson during the Tampa show.

 

Don't reply to me. I shouldn't be here.

Just please keep your ears open to consideration on the wak.

I could be wrong and you can polish away, but I think that one might be a mistake to touch up.

Good luck.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to clarify this,  I'm NOT POLISHING THE WAKIZASHI.

 

You're getting things mixed up.

 

I've never said that the wakizashi is not worth a polish.  Or the tanto, for that matter.

 

I've done nothing to it except for some very light finger stone work.   And how many times have we heard, and some have even said, that it is difficult to harm a sword with fingerstones?

 

I'm not GOING to do more to either the wak or the tanto, they don't need it anyway.  

 

Now that tired katana, yes, I've done more to that.  But when I got it someone else had already begun a bad foundation polish on it. Bad even to my eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to clarify this,  I'm NOT POLISHING THE WAKIZASHI.

 

You're getting things mixed up.

 

Like the 6th grade teacher's trick exam where the final instruction is "ignore all the other instructions",

-I failed to realize you aren't polishing the wak.-

 

Good. Thank you.

Hopefully you'll make it to the Tampa show one day and show it to Benson or Ray.

I wouldn't mind having a look at that one either, though I'd need the books to help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...