Koa Isshin Mantetsu

[Shamsy]

Hey guys, what are these swords worth? High quality fittings, gorgeous light-weight aluminum saya in combat cover with original leather laces. Fittings all original, a patina that screams ‘been there done that’. The blade is thick, chunky and in undamaged condition. A few milk spots and scratches, with a heavier patch of scratches near the kissaki on one side. Overall very good, you can easily see the hamon and grain like pattern.

 

Got a lot of kanji on the tsuka too. No idea what they are...

[Bruce Pennington]

I saw a couple of them sell for around $3,500 last year. I’ve seen one. Go as high as $6,000, buts that’s just crazy! What’s the date on this one?

[PNSSHOGUN]

3-4000usd these days (!)

[Shamsy]

Right, thanks guys. I'll get some pics for you Bruce before it goes.

[Kai-Gunto]

The kanji on the tsuka core, is the name of the tsukamaki master.

[matthewbrice]

Shamsy--best not plan on as high as $3000-$4000.  The highest sale price on eBay in the past 3 months was $2980.  After fees the seller will realize $2625.  The koshirae on your sword has more wear than the other sword.  So it would be best for you to plan for your sword to have a little lower value than that one.  There are other markets for swords, of course.  But it's always best to take into account values on one of the most popular platforms. 

 

 

--Matt B

 

www.StCroixBlades.com

[Shamsy]

Thanks Thomas, I really had no idea what it was! I though it may have been for assembly, so I was way off!

 

Only the market will tell Matt, but appreciate the reigning in of expectations. I personally much prefer a sword what has clearly seen use, so perhaps potential buyers will too.

[Mortis]

Just this past Friday, I saw one at a militaria auction (Morphy's, in Denver, PA)  go for $1,800.00.  It had different koshirae and the blade looked to be in rougher shape though.  Also, I believe there was one for sale on the NMB a few weeks ago.  The seller lived in England I think and was asking somewhere around 1700 British pounds if I remember correctly.

[vajo]

My opinion is to price it what you think it is worth. If someone is interested he will buy it or make an offer. I think the blade could be look nice but the koshirae doesn't. From the pictures i see it is hard for me to judge.

Good luck

Chris

[Shamsy]

Hi Chris, wise words indeed - value is in the eye of the beholder. I am smitten with this sword precisely because it was carried and used in combat. It has the patina and scars to show it. It's all original and the leather combat cover has been preserved instead of cut away to show off the minty saya. It is as it was during the war, except perhaps for leather shrinkage and a few extra milk spots. In my mind, I may never get one as nice as this. Or I may get a nicer version, with a clean, newly wrapped tsuka, a minty saya bereft of combat cover, cleaned fittings... not my thing! These were combat swords, not parade sabers! (I would love to get the blade cleaned up a little though. Polishing blades is something I don't object to at all).

 

Here are a few more pics. The fittings are actually gorgeous and of the very highest quality, hopefully you get a better look now. Yes they are a little 'grimy', but see above. The light-weight aluminium saya must truly be mint under that leather. If only it was removable for a peek!

 

Matched numbers (48) on the seppa and tsuba, as well as the tsuka. It's actually stamped 48 into the wood! You can see the 8 pretty clearly in photo. Hoping there may be something that can be gleamed from the kanji, but seems unlikely.

 

Got you a nakago-mune pic too Bruce, as promised! See what date this lady was made

[IJASWORDS]

Steve, additional photos do the sword more justice, especially of the leather combat cover. It actually looks like above average package. This would be a great addition to any collection. Is it actually on the market? Neil.

[vajo]

Steve, much better pictures. I like it. The open work Tsuba is lovely.

Could you show us some pictures of the blade to see hamon, hada ect.

 

Best

Chris

[vajo]

I want to say, the Tsuba is a dream. That looks so perfect.

[Shamsy]

Thank you both. It is one of the finest ‘standard’ koshirae I have seen. I say standard as there are some truly custom ones with exceptional craftsmanship that are reminiscent of art swords.

 

I'll get some blade pics up in next couple of days.

 

As to market... I'm really reluctant to sell. It's only a money thing and there's always more right around the corner. I'd say no, not for sale.

[Ed]

Steve,

I would reiterate that $3-4K while not impossible, may be a bit unrealistic.  Value is related to condition with the major focus on the blade.  The koshirae on yours looks to be in very nice condition, but  how about the blade?

 

You have not included any photos of the blade, aside from one distant shot and later the nakago. The nakago looks more rusted than most, if not all I have seen.  You mention scars, scratches and patina to show it was used in combat, as well as no photos of the blade. To me, that indicates damage or at least that the sword is less than pristine.  Before one could even consider formulating a value, photos of those areas, along with better photos of the blade need to be provided.  

 

I have had and sold several Mantetsu this year, including another to be sold soon.  The best (aside from the wakizashi), was one where the blade was nearly pristine with the exception of a few surface scratches and minor tarnishing.  After seeing what some of these had apparently sold for on e-bay, it was listed at $3250, but eventually sold for much less.

 

Please note, my inquiry is not aimed at undermining your sale but related to your request for valuation.  Valuation via photos is difficult at best, but impossible without photos.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

I would reiterate that $3-4K while not impossible, may be a bit unrealistic.  Value is related to condition with the major focus on the blade.  The koshirae on yours looks to be in very nice condition, but  how about the blade?

 

You have not included any photos of the blade, aside from one distant shot and later the nakago. The nakago looks more rusted than most, if not all I have seen.  You mention scars, scratches and patina to show it was used in combat, as well as no photos of the blade. To me, that indicates damage or at least that the sword is less than pristine.  Before one could even consider formulating a value, photos of those areas, along with better photos of the blade need to be provided.  

 

I have had and sold several Mantetsu this year, including another to be sold soon.  The best (aside from the wakizashi), was one where the blade was nearly pristine with the exception of a few surface scratches and minor tarnishing.  After seeing what some of these had apparently sold for on e-bay, it was listed at $3250, but eventually sold for much less.

 

Please note, my inquiry is not aimed at undermining your sale but related to your request for valuation.  Valuation via photos is difficult at best, but impossible without photos.

It is interesting, Ed. I've noticed a marked fall-off of Officer gunto prices over the last year or so.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

 

You didn't say whether you needed translating on the nakago, but the serial number on the nakago mune is "Ta 181" (they used katakana on the mune). The date is amazingly identical to mine! "Spring 1941"; and the other side is "Koa Isshin Mantetsu". Not to worry on the nakago rust as that cleans up easily (though you don't intend to do so).

 

You've probably seen the before and after on mine, but here's the nakago and the kissaki:

[vajo]

Hi Bruce (your sword is outstanding)

Never clean the nakago. 

I think you should judge the military swords like the other nihonto. Because in some years the most ww2 swords are hundred years old. They became in later times the antique stamp.

 

Like condition. You can not know what happened to the sword before, during and after war. A lot if idiots play around with the swords. Trying to cut something oder doing anything else. A german ww2 veteran say to me. War is, most of time waiting and a short time action. Only the soldier who carries the sword can know if he was fighting with his sword. 

 

This is why i now try to collect only gendaito in some good condition. If it has a type 0 mounting i must buy it 

[Shamsy]

Thanks for the date Bruce. The mei was straight out of the books so no worries there, but I am once again reminded I should try to learn some basic translation.

 

Ed, I get entirely what you're saying. Sadly the blade is scratched around the kissaki and has some small areas of stain along with overall milk-spotting. The good part is I neither care, nor does it matter, because I'm not going to and really don't want to sell it. Might get it polished one day, but plenty to see as is and I've got other priorities.

[Ed]

Yes, the date reads Showa Kanoto Miharu. It was produced and dated spring, 1941. It is dated in the Kanshi or Zodiac method.

 

Steve, No worry, I thought you were trying to decide what to sell it for.   But, regardless it is still necessary to see photos in order to formulate a value, which is what you originally asked for 

[Shamsy]

Oh yes, I'd still like an idea of value. Frankly if push comes to shove and it's between funds for a 95 or not... The Mantetsu is out the door. I'll get those photos on tonight or tomorrow. Cheers Ed.

[reeder]

Mantetsu > NCO for sure. 1941 Was a good year for Mantetsu-to. They tend to be nicely done all around.

[Shamsy]

If you get your hands on a rare NCO I'll happily trade Brandon.

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris, I agree on cleaning. It was my dad's though, and I'll never sell. I wanted to return it to as original condition as possible.

 

Steve, Ohmura states that blood leaves a white stain on swords. Maybe that's what you're looking at on yours!

[Shamsy]

Urgh. That would be quite horrific Bruce. I call them milk spotting because they're like small whitish drops and smears. I'll take a better look and see if I can capture then in a picture. They're on a fair bit of the blade, not overly noticeable at first glance. Does Ohmura have an example picture I can compare?

[Dave R]

 Blood apparently also strips bluing or colour case hardening, the haemoglobin possibly reacts with the iron oxide. I got this from someone who had it happen to his revolver cylinder. (Accidental injury, not combat related).

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's nasty stuff, here's some medical tools from the 1800's with rust caused by blood, note the spiderweb appearance it causes.

 

Link is here:
http://www.medicalantiques.com/civilwar/Surgery_Sets/Goulding_Mexican_War_set_c.1846.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

Urgh. That would be quite horrific Bruce. I call them milk spotting because they're like small whitish drops and smears. I'll take a better look and see if I can capture then in a picture. They're on a fair bit of the blade, not overly noticeable at first glance. Does Ohmura have an example picture I can compare?

He has pics here: http://ohmura-study.net/136.html

 

He also says rust on a Koa Isshin is white, so that may be all your seeing, though, the spiderweb blood stain, like John’s is white too, on the Mantetsu.

[Shamsy]

Here are the aforementioned pictures, (took a while to achieve the right conditions to capture each aspect) showing the overall blade condition, along with the 'milk-spotting'. I've added one under more controlled lighting conditions to show you what the white spotting looks like.  It takes on a more brownish appearance. I have no idea if this is blood or not. Certainly it is a sword that has been carried in the field, but beyond that I cannot say.

 

Lastly, a couple of pictures of the scratched up kissaki. It doesn't look that bad in hand, but micro lenses pick up everything. Even made my Gassan look scratched in perfect polish...

[Shamsy]

It's nasty stuff, here's some medical tools from the 1800's with rust caused by blood, note the spiderweb appearance it causes.

 

Ergh. I have seen a couple of regular gunto that defiantly have that black spider-web blood spatter etched into the metal. Now I know what it is and why it is different to the regular patch rust.