Osuriage - Why Not Worth For Koto Blades?

[ken kata]

Hello Guys,

I was searching for info on Osuriage and Suriage Muromachi Blades.

1) Why is Osuriage "Bad" for collecting?

 a) Is it bad , because it is Not original" ?

  B) Is  it because the blade is "considered untraceable"  or ruined, because of the loss of it's original nakago Character? ( Shape/ Yasurime/ Mei)

 

 2) Why is Ubu a must for Muromachi and later Blades? (I read that somewhere      )

 

I did find this post during the forum search, but, I did not see/ or catch any related answers.

Link to Post:

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19569-unsigned-blades-with-nbthk-hozon-papers-vs-signed/?hl=o-suriage

 

Would you guys like to post your opinions, knowledge about Osuriage Koto Blades?

I was wondering why there is not much about Osugiage other than it's explanation.

More like the "collector's feelings" about osugiage Blades, as, maybe it was more of producing only  negative

outlook at/about them?

 

Thank You for viewing.

Alton < again..

[Marius]

Ad 1: not bad. just undesirable and adversely affecting market value. Not ruined, just altered, with lost signature (if there ever was one).

 

Ad 2: It is not a must. See above.

 

 

Ubu is always desirable, the older the sword, the more desirable it is. The younger the sword the more undesirable if o-suriage.

 

Read this, if you have not:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/O-suriage.html

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Suriage.pdf

http://nbthk-ab.org/Standards.html

[Ken-Hawaii]

Most collectors prefer to acquire blades that are as close to their original condition as possible, Alton, so cutting off anywhere from a small chunk of nakago to a very-large chunk doesn't exactly maintain much originality, please losing part or all of the mei, as Mariusz noted.

 

Here's a list of the seven times I've found when sword lengths were required to be cut down by law:

    In the second year of Kencho (1250), Hojo Tokiyori prohibited ordinary people from carrying long swords.  This regulation was enforced by Akashi Kanetsuna, since then, common people and all priests carried long Kogatana called Wakizashi no Tachi.

    In Tensho XVI (1588), Hideyoshi made a proclamation to obtain from common people the surrender of their swords.  Being a cunning man, he announced that it was his intention to build a Daibutsu Temple in Kyoto, and that he required thousands of nails, and he wished people to hand over their swords so that they might acquire merit towards a future life by stopping their earthly fights and contributing towards a religious cause.  But people were less interested in a problematic paradise than in actually protecting themselves, and they did not rise to his bait.

    In Genna VIII, the Shogun Tokugawa Iyetada prohibited common people from wearing swords to avoid brawls; the Tachi was called then O Wakizashi.

    In Kwanyei XVII (1640), Tokugawa Iyemitsu prohibited the attendants of Bujin from carrying tachi.

    In Kwambun X (1670), Tokugawa Iyetsuna issued a regulation making the length of tachi 2'8"-9", and o-wakizashi 1'8", and anyone carrying a longer sword was liable to punishment.

    In Tenna III (1683), Tokugawa Tsunayoshi reiterated the prohibition to common people to wear the long sword, but allowed them to carry a tanto; musicians and painters, even when of the Samurai class, were debarred from carrying a big sword.

    In Kwansei X (1798), it was decided that any sword exceeding 1'8" should be termed Naga Wakizashi, and anyone carrying such a sword was liable to punishment.  Later, the length was reduced to 1'5".

    Finally, in Meiji IX (1877), the Haitorei was issued prohibiting the wearing of swords, except the one sword belonging to soldiers and police when in uniform.
 

[Fuuten]

 2) Why is Ubu a must for Muromachi and later Blades? (I read that somewhere      )

I think you are recalling is the list of standards for tokubetsu hozon if i'm not mistaken.

[Jean]

Axel,

 

Yes and for 2 good reasons:

 

1 - during Muromachi so many swords were forged that the majority having survived are ubu.

2 - during Edo, no wars, so no reasons to have swords forged modified.

[ken kata]

Hey guys,

Thanks..

This is why I ask.

you guys, put together, can sum up a lot of info/knowledge.

Beyond the simple answers that are usually "referenced" in yahoo search

 

"To teach someone nothing, is to teach them everything". - something like that.

 I am trying to put some order in learning about Nihonto.

There is so much to read and "digest", that, the beginning statement becomes true.

from these "simple-minded" post I post, there is some "Order Out of Chaos".

 

1) One fact of Osuriage , is, the Blade was once longer, so, it must have been genuine.

as in..

who would make a fake old blade, making that blade longer, then, preform the Osuriage, to make it appear to be an old blade , "with the Natural order of things" ( shorting) applied to it,

 so, it would not be questioned as a newly made old "Fake" blade.. 

 

Alton , again

[TheGermanBastard]

It is bad because it hurts the value. The quality of teh work is not affected. So you can buy O-Suriage all the time if the price is right. Since there is less demand from collectors you just to buy it at a reasonable price that someone else is likely to pay, too.

[paulb]

Alton

if someone wanted to fake an old sword making one that looks to be O-suriage is an easier option. There are numerous examples of blades that at first sight appear O-suriage koto but were actually made much later (often shin-shinto)with the intention to decieve.

My understanding of the thinking behind why is suriage acceptable on older swords is that in the history of warfare their method of useage changed demanding a change in shape. i.e. used increasingly on foot and less from horse back. In later blades no such changes in methodology demanded blades to be re-configured. Therefore there is no real justifiaction for changing their shape.

[Valric]

Hurting financial value is the consequence but not the cause. Shape has a lot to do with aesthetic appreciation, and when shape is compromised away from the vision of the original smith, you lose some of that artistic value. Think of it as a painting that you'd crop to make it fit in a new canvas. You can lose a lot. 

 

Then there is masterfully executed Suriage, and horribly executed mutilation. In the case of the former, the artisan is mindful of the shape and skillfully executes the shortening. These are all things you need to take into account when appraising a shortened blade. 

 

Scarcity and intent are key to understand why suriage tolerance depends on the period of the sword. Ubu koto tachi are very rare due to the factors outline by others (changes in warfare, norms of carrying) which essentially leads the suriage to be performed 'honestly' - that is, within the constrains of cultural evolution. Whereas, suriage executed at later period are much more likely to reflect deceptive intent compared to legitimate requirements of the owner. This leaves the sword forever tainted. 

[ken kata]

All god post guys.

all kinds of "view points" and examples.

 

In a way, this is a good way to learn, with "direct and explanative" post. 

and, the many ways of thinking about the subject.

Books/readings are "condensed". It would distract and go "off course" of the main subject being read.

Here, in an informal way, all the different view points and " things you never knew to ask" stuff comes out.'I bet many benefit

from these 'bits and pieces of information".

 

So, today, I just received a box, with a "Koto" , Osurage  Katana in Koshirae.

Still did not open it.

Has "Origami" ...

So, half way to

or.  

 

Some of you know what it is .. (Luis, Ken) ..

 

So, " The adventure Continues...."

 

I was going to mention, for me, (and, this is what I wanted   ) , you guys are like a Informal , "un sanctioned", self-elected (saying in a nice way), Kantei team.

Now, if this Forum was, (and in a way, it is  ) Official, or "Highly Recognized" by many. ...... 

 

Thank you guys..

Alton < Member-  Koto Osuriage Owner's Club

 

 

 

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, 

 

A quick look at the number of O suriage Koto blades that pass Juyo shinsa in any given year should spell out the significance of kantei and O suriage blades to the collector. Which effectively makes a statement about mindfulness regarding following, not ignoring, the NBTHK guidelines for certification as well. On the flip side, shinsa failures need to be carefully understood, too. The 2nd step in kantei is evaluating quality according to Sato sensei.