Jump to content


Photo

Need Quick Help.. Is This Fatal?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
45 replies to this topic

#1 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 06:33 AM

is this a deal breaker? It does run over into the mune.... It was delivered this afternoon. Should I be asking for my money back? Got it from AOI and this was not in any description.

 

Kurt K

Attached Thumbnails

  • DSCN0701.JPG

Kurt Knabbe


#2 Guest_Rayhan_*

Guest_Rayhan_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:04 AM

I'm crying for this sword. Does it appear on the other side at all? I've never known Aoi to omit a flaw from their description they have no reason to with the volume they do. Is it papered?

#3 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:11 AM

Not all the way through.. but as stated, into the mune... about half way across.. not papered.. it was not super expensive but then again, im not rich. 

 

this is the best shot i could get of mune.. point and shoot does not want to focus on such a small surface.

Attached Thumbnails

  • DSCN0703.JPG

Kurt Knabbe


#4 raymondsinger

raymondsinger

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,033 posts
  • LocationUnited States

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:13 AM

I would consider this to be a fatal kizu.

http://www.ksky.ne.j....html#temperingcrack
  • Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini, nagamaki - Franco and tokashikibob like this

#5 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:16 AM

I would consider this to be a fatal kizu.

http://www.ksky.ne.j....html#tempering

Kizu or hagiri? I want to make sure i word it properly when i write to them. So angry.. waited almost 1.4 months to get this sword.


Kurt Knabbe


#6 raymondsinger

raymondsinger

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,033 posts
  • LocationUnited States

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:18 AM

I would refer to it as a crack in the kissaki.

http://www.ksky.ne.j...ie99/flaws.html
  • Dave R likes this

#7 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 08:23 AM

I wrote them  a respectful letter and included the pics.. I guess i'll have to wait and see what they say. 


Kurt Knabbe


#8 Blagoy

Blagoy

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • LocationBulgaria

Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:53 AM

Sorry to hear for your bad experience with AOI. I was thinking to buy wakizashi from them, not very expensive. But after seeing your post, I'm a little skeptical. Can you post description from AOI? 

I wish you luck with this and get your money back!


Blagoy

#9 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:08 AM

Original page with description is gone.. but it did not say anything about this.. They are saying its Kitae, not hagiri.. it's a crack.. no question. They will give me my $ back.. - shipping, insurance and registration. This is definitely leaving a bad taste in my mouth... especially after having done so much business with them in the past. 


Kurt Knabbe


#10 PNSSHOGUN

PNSSHOGUN

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,876 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:35 AM

Fatal. An unlisted flaw like this is completely unacceptable and is grounds for a refund.

 

I would not have a problem if the price and listing reflected it and you got a steal, considering these aren't combat/martial arts swords anymore there is no risk beyond problems reselling it.


John


#11 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 8,052 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:36 AM

Generally, Aoi pictures are HR and you can see all kizu, even Hagire.
Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#12 Gakusee

Gakusee

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 617 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:45 AM

So, this does not look like kitae ware (forging issue) but a crack which might have been due to impact or could be due to tension release upon polishing etc. It looks fatal to me from a combat perspective as if the sword is thrust (less liikely) or swung and the kissaki hits a hard target it might break.

Now onto Aoi Art.... I have had successful purchases from them. But I have also seen instances where they Photoshopped out some kizu (flaws) or misrepresented the hamon in their oshigata. So, one needs to inspect photos and items very carefully. The fact that they do a high volume has little to do with integrity etc but the price point they sell at and the English language market they target (one of very few Japanese dealers with full English websites). One also needs to construe carefully the broken English translations and for Juyo items - read the setsumei etc, as those sometimes reveal wishful or very clever marketing. Mostly they are OK though.
Michael S.

#13 Guest_Rayhan_*

Guest_Rayhan_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:54 AM

I would beg to disagree with the photoshop comment, I visit with them almost 4 times a year and have never seen any evidence of them photoshopping out Kizu and Tsuruta sama alays says if there is a flaw, especially on a consignment piece. 

 

Kurt if you do not mind giving me the item number (serial code for the sword) I would like to see if I can get the exact description. 

 

Very loyal to them so I find some of the accusations here unfair and unfounded.

 

Ray



#14 Gakusee

Gakusee

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 617 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:10 AM

Ray
I did not say they did it often but they have done it. Perhaps it is one of the young chaps in the background but they did it on a Juyo sword I was considering by a reasonably famous maker. In the emails back and forth Tsuruta san did explain there was a mark there, as I had glimpsed in the Juyo paper and went on to say it was a battle mark. In another instance, it was just a small kizu in the shinogi ji (I could live with that on a Kamakura blade) but it was cleverly obscured in the large format full length photo.

I am really glad your Aoe turned all right, as did my sword purchase from them. And I also visit them 1-2 a year. But buyers need to be aware, ask questions upfront, check oshigata, check photos, ask for additional pictures if unsure etc. If we have the luxury to inspect items in hand the it is another matter altogether. If not, ask questions of Tsuruta san - he usually gives clear and plausible answers.
Michael S.

#15 Shugyosha

Shugyosha

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 931 posts
  • LocationJust beyond the edge

Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

Original page with description is gone.. 

 

Has it been moved to their archive site? https://www.aoijapan.net/


Best regards, John 

Please excuse my spelling mistakes, brevity and ignorance.


#16 sabiji

sabiji

    Chu Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 37 posts
  • LocationBerlin, Germany.

Posted 20 October 2017 - 03:30 PM

http://www.militaria...0-buying-gimei/

 

If you look closely, you can see the crack. Has the blade also a Nioi-gire, as I warned? Gimei, Crack etc, now you know why the blade was so cheap.


Thomas S.

#17 Guest_Rayhan_*

Guest_Rayhan_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 October 2017 - 04:09 PM

:rotfl: Ok so forewarned is forearmed and you can see that crack in the picture clear as day. If you still bought it stop complaining. :rotfl:

 

Ray



#18 raymondsinger

raymondsinger

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,033 posts
  • LocationUnited States

Posted 20 October 2017 - 04:51 PM

To clarify, it is not a hagire, or crack in the cutting edge (ha = edge), but I believe this type of crack still occurs during the yakiire process. I completely disagree with their comment that this is a kitae-ware.

 

Original page with description is gone.. but it did not say anything about this.. They are saying its Kitae, not hagiri.. it's a crack.. no question. 

 

FWIW, I do not believe they Photoshopped this particular piece. When I take the original photo and adjust the levels in Photoshop, this series of cracks can be seen.

 

kissaki.jpg

 



#19 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,286 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 04:53 PM

:rotfl: Ok so forewarned is forearmed and you can see that crack in the picture clear as day. If you still bought it stop complaining. :rotfl:

 

Ray

 

Do you see that crack clearly in the Aoi pic because you know its there?, I wonder.

 

Anyone can make that mistake.


Alex.

#20 Guest_Rayhan_*

Guest_Rayhan_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:07 PM

No disrespect intended Alex, but yes it is right there clear as day.



#21 Alex A

Alex A

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 2,286 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:22 PM

Clear as day, in this pic?, you have good eyesight. Ive just bought a sword from Aoi, wished id sent the images over to you for a once over.

 

And for what its worth, I don't think it was me you where being disrespectful to, the guy could obviously do without the :rotfl:

Attached Thumbnails

  • crack.jpg

Alex.

#22 Shugyosha

Shugyosha

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 931 posts
  • LocationJust beyond the edge

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:34 PM

:rotfl: Ok so forewarned is forearmed and you can see that crack in the picture clear as day. If you still bought it stop complaining. :rotfl:

 

Ray

 

 

It's pretty clear in Kurt's original post in this thread but not particularly so in Aoi's. Even if I blow the page up to 400% then it still doesn't jump off the page, though the magic of hindsight does make it easier to spot. 

 

We all live in a world where we expect to buy and sell at a distance without the benefit of a hands on examination and something as significant as this flaw ought to have been pointed out by Aoi, as they do with hagire. I don't know what the Iaidoka amongst us think, but if they suggested that this blade was suitable for Iaido practice as was suggested in the original thread, then that too may be material. For me anyway, by stating that the blade is suitable for Iaido practice implies that it is structurally sound

 

Best wishes to Kurt and I hope that this gets resolved quickly.

 

Best,

John


Best regards, John 

Please excuse my spelling mistakes, brevity and ignorance.


#23 Shugyosha

Shugyosha

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 931 posts
  • LocationJust beyond the edge

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:36 PM

 

And for what its worth, I don't think it was me you where being disrespectful to, the guy could obviously do without the :rotfl:

 

What he said.


Best regards, John 

Please excuse my spelling mistakes, brevity and ignorance.


#24 Jean

Jean

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 8,052 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:46 PM

Cool guys.

To be factual, you will notice that all kissaki pictures are generally overexposed and so difficult to study. I have good sight and would have passed on this crack if not mentioned by Kurt. I fully concur with Alex. Ray had to photoshop the picture to have a clear view of the crack.
Jean L.
Soshin Gimei

#25 Guest_Rayhan_*

Guest_Rayhan_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:58 PM

Ok gentlemen in the spirit of the board:

 

1) Kurt kindly accept my apology for the  :rotfl: . I meant no harm and even though i can say when looking at any picture on the net it is important to screen it in filters and zoom in HD I should not jest since a purchase of a blade is a heartfelt decision. So, I am sorry you were disappointed and wish you only good experiences in the future.

 

2) Alex, I have good eyesight, but nonetheless if you need a first hand opinion send it through. I meant nothing of it but there were clear warnings before the purchase and yes I can see the fine cracks even if some say they cannot.

 

Let's not get heated here the man will get his money back. I have dealt with Aoi for a long time and know them to be very truthful people so even if there was a misunderstanding, fact is you do not berate a persons business after having all the material and advice necessary to make a decision. If you came in with the intention of an opinion on a flaw, ok, but the lead up to slander is never ok. 

 

Ray 



#26 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 06:55 PM

As john said, the magic of hindsight.. i look back at my old post and can see it this time around, but it's easy to find Waldo when you already knew where he was.  I'm not mad about having paid what i did.. otherwise it's a really nice sword and the fittings are sweet.. I am upset at the fact that it was not pointed out at all in the listing... If it has said 1xyg8q.jpg 

i would have seen them for what they were .. and moved on..... Further, i'm disappointed at how it's being mischaracterized now... especially seeing as everyone here seems to agree that it is a quench crack.

 

I may return it with lesson learned.. anyone know what the registration cost is? Just trying to figure out what this lesson will cost.

 

and no.. there is no Noigiri..  its totally solid otherwise.

 

just a slightly raised eyebrow..  did ANYONE catch those cracks the first time when i posted about this blade? Not at all to say it's not totally my fault for missing it (it is and mea culpa).., but i think i get a few less points off if the pros (which i am not by any stretch of the imagination) missed it too. 


Kurt Knabbe


#27 raymondsinger

raymondsinger

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,033 posts
  • LocationUnited States

Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:42 PM

If I was evaluating based on the photos as-is I would likely not have caught the presence of this kizu, but I always enhance photos of swords I am considering in Photoshop (increasing contrast and adjusting levels) to see more detail. It is shocking what can be seen sometimes which is not obvious in the default images. For example, an area of kakedasu that can been seen through the kesho by adjusting the image. Aoi handles a large volume of swords and it is apparent that things like this slip through, but they have always offered a refund in the past when I found something that was not accurately described.

 

 

did ANYONE catch those cracks the first time when i posted about this blade?


  • Alex A, obiwanknabbe and Vermithrax16 like this

#28 obiwanknabbe

obiwanknabbe

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 415 posts
  • LocationFort Worth, TX

Posted 20 October 2017 - 08:13 PM

Thanks for that piece of advice Ray.. I don't have photoshop anymore but this is a good technique for getting a better feel for swords being offered from afar. Live and learn. I'm going to return it and take the 150 dollar or so hit.  Cheaper than a college credit and a better lesson all around. 


Kurt Knabbe


#29 Gakusee

Gakusee

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 617 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 21 October 2017 - 01:04 AM

Ok, boys and girls, get your popcorn and sit comfortably and enjoy the show. As I have said many a time, I do not post frequently - in fact, only a handful of times. I have been on this forum for well over 10-12 years initially as a lurker and then a member and proffer opinions only occasionally. When I do, it is because I have relevant facts, knowledge, time or predisposition to do it (like my current jet lagged self) and want to help people who are on a learning curve or about to fall into a pit.
To be honest, I am also a Koto Bizen aficionado and a bit of a Muramasa fan and people do not discuss these topics often either. So, I browse and try hard to find interesting topics to add to.

Furthermore, I do not slander. This is the last thing I would do and oblique references by Rayhan to such demeanour can only infuriate me and precipitate further action. If you trace my actions here, you will notice a common thread: disabuse the misguided, debunk myths about (pseudo) polishers or artisans, point out gimei signatures, etc in my quixotic attempt to help people. If readers and participants do turn a blind eye, refuse to learn or do not do sufficient homework - it is up to them; caveat emptor.

This is being a long preamble (the denouement is at the bottom) but please stay with me. Next, a few tips in general to Internet sword purchasers, mentioned already by respectable, long-term members here:

- use Wayback Machine (in fact donate to that Alexa project): it captures historic snapshots of websites and you will find it useful to uncover old versions of websites and in our case - posted swords, sales etc

- tweak picture settings, magnify, inspect millimetre by millimetre the photos provided to you

- ask for more pictures

- specifically learn the flaw terms and ask about the presence of those

- if the sword is Juyo: a) if you do not know Japanese, pay for a translation of the Juyo Zufu Nado setsumei ($30 -$40 to Markus Sesko well spent) as that describes what the NBTHK judges really think about the blade (deals with bombastic marketing language by dealers); b ) pay for or do yourself a translation of the sayagaki, c ) inspect the Juyo Zufu Nado oshigata and pictures for a truthful
representation of the sword

- do not be deluded that you will stumble across a hidden gem (they do exist, are very rare and it is a tough game to play and also relies a lot on chance) - assume the blade you are considering has been eyeballed plenty of times in Japan and internationally

- ask here for advice BEFORE you buy
.... The list can go on

Now let us get back to our friends Aoi Art Japan, the well-known, anglo-friendly dealer who targets the mid market so successfully (but also has high-end swords often enough). Darcy Brockbank, who has selflessly posted and taught newbies here for so many years, and recently vexed by this board to the point of leaving, has posted several times about the “scratch & dent” specials of Aoi. Now, not all swords are problematic but many of the postings have issues (which make them no so attractive in Japan or to mor advanced collectors or to experts) and one needs to do homework and thorough analysis to figure out why. But not everyone is advanced or has deep pockets, and this makes Aoi an attractive marketplace with something for pretty much everyone.

The issues with the Aoi items could be minor: blade length is not so attractive, unusual/atypical signature (described in setsumei but NOT explained in website narrative), wrong but not deliberately deceitful descriptions (irrelevant text brought forward from other postings or wrong certificate description). Or they could be more major: doctored photos, exaggerated oshigata, improperly run auctions (where they let their online auctions run for longer than the advertised time), and others (for the advanced students - remember the thread a couple of years about a putative Kiyomaro).

On the plus side, if you really know what you are doing, you know/ understand what you are getting, then you could buy good blades there as well. I have done so and upgraded a blade to Juyo, which I bought from Aoi. Tsuruta san laughed and smiled when I told him but was also surprised he had missed a trick and not upgraded it himself (and tripled the sale price).

And now specially for Rayhan - the dessert.....

Below is a little tired but nearly ubu, signed shoshin Bizen Saburo Kunimune. A grandmaster of a smith. The blade is a little tired and on the short side and the nioiguchi has lost some of its vigour. These are the characteristics which make it less attractive to people in the market for Kunimune and with those sorts of funds to spend and in general - the upper end market and Japan. If these were not the case, it would be probably 20% - 30% more expensive.

In any case, please look at the attached
A - Aoi oshigata
B - Aoi full length photo

Now compare them to the attached Nuyo Zufu Nado Excerpt. Pay attention to the hamon outline - particularly the boshi but also the activity interpretation in both oshigata. I know which one I trust.

Next, look at the clearly drawn kizu in the NBTHK paper. Compare it to the unattractively Photoshopped blob in the Aoi picture - the kizu is missing but also the elliptical blob is obvious when magnified.

If you analyse the sidereal series of photos which Aoi also posts to show the hamon (the PDF file herein), you will also notice that large dent is there, albeit cleverly obscured by use of lighting.

I rest my case.

Attached Thumbnails

  • aoi kunimune juyo zufu nado.jpeg
  • photoshopped kizu.jpeg
  • monouchi aoi kunimune .jpeg

Attached Files


  • paulb, b.hennick, Alex A and 1 other like this
Michael S.

#30 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 13,456 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 21 October 2017 - 01:51 AM

Life is full of pitfalls, enjoy your trips!
"This to shall pass"
USMC DEC 63 APR 73




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq