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My First Sword Find. Help Id Please...


JPGH

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I thought they were all short? Haha, sorry, couldn't resist.

 

But agreed, not all sub/fighter/tanker/paras carried wakizashi, even though it is understandable why they would. There was a picture either here or on the WAF recently that showed a surrender at Yokosuka with one naval officer holding a wakizashi in traditional koshirae in the leather saya cover. I would think he would be on a staff, but I need to reread it.

 

As for the blade, definitely has some good activity, although it does appear to be chemically enhanced. If so, and by acid, I would suggest a possible sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) bath to remove any acid deposits before it works further on the steel!

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Jojo,

 

What a beautiful find!!! Great old waki in gorgeous fittings. Pictures and lighting do weird things to blades, so don't worry about that.

 

I would just like to take the timeout to thank you ALL for your time, thoughts and most helpful replies.....most appreciated!

 

I've tried my best today to capture this Hamon you all mentioned, but to no avail. I cannot for the life of me capture it with my camera as well as I've seen others on the internet. Below are the best two images I have. Do they help at all?

 

Also, do you all think this acidity on the blade may have been caused by fingerprints and/or the wood lined interior of the original WWII scabbard? After the blade sitting for many years, I assume this (acid within the wood) would cause these effects on the blade as do the wood backings of antique framed prints & drawings receive foxing. 

 

Again, thank you all!

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Me thinks you are all right.

Unfortunately not. The very vast majority of wakizashi mounted for military use has nothing to do with the role of the officers, but everything to do with the shortage of swords. Nothing more, the whole ‘crew gunto’ being assigned to all these swords is an old fallacy.

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Thankfully the Japanese national archives have been translated and explained by Nick, who in several of his detailed and factual accounts has explained some of the shortage initiatives used to close supply gaps for officer swords. One that he discussed as an aside in the Type 0 translation is the Military Sword Appraisal Committee in 1938 which actively purchased samurai swords to use as army and naval guntos. Another measure was allowing NCO to bring their own samurai swords in 1945.

 

While I'm sure at least someone cooped up in a tank brought along a wakizashi, the only way to call a sword a ‘crew sword’ is knowing that the veteran obtained it from a driver/pilot.

 

You're right Stephen, but I think it's the merchants that like the ‘crew gunto’ idea the most!

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Sorry Jojo, we are digressing off topic, but I was struggling to hold my peace on the whole crew gunto thing.

 

I've been able to photograph all but one hamon by sitting in a dark room, back to a slightly opened window (just enough for an aura) and using a flash camera down the length of the blade. You should try that.

 

Sadly acid or cleaning agents are applied by people, not time. Still a nice little wak though.

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I am with Steve on this . Everytime I read about a short gunto being described as a crew gunto it gets up my nose . If you look at the pieces that Ohmura describes as crew gunto they are much shorter than this piece and most others that are described as crew gunto  . Most are described as crew gunto , in my opinion ,by dealers hoping to part the gullible from their money .

Ian Brooks

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Thank you Ian. My personal bugbear is the way merchants pretend all NCOs are fake but the 3 pieces of junk they hold are real, so don't trust anyone else!! But I've been finding this crew gunto craze starting to concern me. The more people believe something the harder it is to obtain objective facts.

 

Yoshisuke made this ko-wakizashi

 

Measurements are roughly;

Nagasa - 32cm

Kasane - munemachi - 9mm

- sakikasane - 4mm

Mihaba - motohaba - 3cm

- sakihaba - 2cm

 

This is closer to what has been labeled 'crew gunto'. Personally I would elect to abandon this term all together as it is grossly misleading. It is basically the assigning a role to a weapon with zero proof as it its intended and actual role. Like calling all katana samurai swords, which they most certainly aren't.

 

This debate will go the same way as the SNLF/Type 3 sword (when in fact no such pattern existed). It was merely an emergency pattern that at best can be called the Type 0. But sometimes things are too ingrained in a collecting society to change, despite new information disproving the old.

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I'm with Steve, (ps nice crew kai gunto)

 

there is a craze about crew gunto, semi made up by dealers.  True imperil sword enthusiast should be able to pick the true crew gunto from just short gunto or civilian mounted wakizashi

 

just look for the very short single handed tsuka, with matching kai or shin gunto fittings

 

just my 10 cents

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Could you explain the sense of a short Gunto?

This is the only sense for me.

"The officer of arming which has restrictions in battle habitation space had the necessary short Guntō." 

Someone here wrote, that they had to less swords. That is crazy. Japan had more Swords than people before war. And why the army should produce expensive Type 98 swords binding ressources, when everyone could carry what he wants?

It makes no sense.

And another question. If a short sword (under 2 Shaku) could only carrying by officers who work in limited space. A short sword is a proud symbol for that specialists like tank commander, pilots, submariners and others.

If you say they havn't enough swords so they use "old" wakizashi to bring it to war, than this is an insult for the soldier, because he is to poor or to bad to carry a long sword.

A short gunto is a symbol and a award for the officer who carried it because he was not a normal soldier.

 

Thats my last thoughts on this. 

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I'll try to succinctly conclude; Shortage of available swords and lax regulation just about sum it up for the most part. I'm sure there are a number of other factors too; family blades, shorter stature, desire for quality that was not available in a longer blade, just person preferences, weight reduction and yes, possible space restrictions for vehicle crew... The conjecture on this is endless.

 

What we know as fact though; there were severe sword shortages which on several occasions resulted in older wakizashi and katana blades being purchased/allowed to be mounted for officers.

 

And as I mentioned, for a private purchase item with lax regulation, you can expect wakizashi to be present.

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There is. There is one known example I've not seen, but one of the board members told me about. He has a picture too... Which I'll hassle him about finding again.

 

So not really short, but this was a miniature version of an NCO. I can't remember much more, so I'll wait to get the facts before spreading possibly incorrect information.

 

But in a more general sense, NCO are a standardised sword made by machine to specifications. They were also military (well the emperor's) property, not personally purchased (though officers could both rent an NCO and privately purchase them, but that's a whole new topic and not my work to claim).

 

Anyway, ultimately I'm only trying to pass on the little I know, which I've learnt from much more studious types, so whether or not anyone listens is up to each individual. The Japanese national archives clearly discuss in great deal sword shortages and I can see no logical reason to refute the official documents.

Edited by Shamsy
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Sorry Jojo, we are digressing off topic, but I was struggling to hold my peace on the whole crew gunto thing.

 

I've been able to photograph all but one hamon by sitting in a dark room, back to a slightly opened window (just enough for an aura) and using a flash camera down the length of the blade. You should try that.

 

Sadly acid or cleaning agents are applied by people, not time. Still a nice little wak though.

 

Wow!

 

I see this thread has went to a level far beyond what I was expecting. Some great info being dropped and I learn something new each time I log-in.

 

I tired taking the photos as you suggested, but to no avail. Cannot capture the hamon. Would the piece clean-up better if I sent it to be professionally polished? Is it worth having this professionally done? (I know, stupid questions).

 

Is it possible for you or another member(s) of the board to please give me a breakdown of exactly what I have?     Meaning....... your sword is a late-Koto period, Bizen school, Wakizashi with WWII mount/fittings.

 

I'm quite sure my above breakdown is totally wrong and pathetic.  :(

 

Last, from what you all have seen from the images, what would you "grade" it's condition on a scale of 1 to 10 and it's "collectibility" to collectors such as yourselves?

 

I thank you all in advance for your time and help. 

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Honestly, I think maybe a 5/10 or so, but it also depends on the owner. Probably more with the mounts. I personally, if in full polish, would rate it higher even mumei, but that's because I love guntovmounted blades and koto wakizashi, and it looks that has an ubu nakago and still healthy!

 

Is it worth a shinsa submittal and a full polish? That depends on you! Are you planning on keeping the blade to cherish and pass on to family, or study as much, enjoy it as long as possible, With the details visible, the blade is really nice! And as stated, the mounts are the icibg on the cake, especially for wartime collectors. But rhe cost of polish, shirasaya, shinsa can bring the price to be more than the blade, but if you intend to keep it, definitely worth it, if not financially.

 

As for the polish itself, I agree with the others, possibly someone used acid to bring out the details quick. Unfortunately, that can be a bad thing as it seeps into the porous steel of older blades and can eat the steel from the inside out. Most recommend a sodium bicarbonate bath to neutralize the acid, but should see what others say.

 

Agree with the statements, although surely some wakizashi probably did end the hands of those who served in closed quarters. When one looks at it, it isn't really much shorter than standard sized daito. But every inch counts, and some true, some not, some carried smaller pistols as such. I think its true though that the crew gunto statement could be a marketing term, the same as how the last Mauser Lugers with their deep dark bluing and black grips came to be known as "Black Widows."

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Could you explain the sense of a short Gunto?

This is the only sense for me.

"The officer of arming which has restrictions in battle habitation space had the necessary short Guntō." [/size]

Someone here wrote, that they had to less swords. That is crazy. Japan had more Swords than people before war. And why the army should produce expensive Type 98 swords binding ressources, when everyone could carry what he wants?

It makes no sense.

And another question. If a short sword (under 2 Shaku) could only carrying by officers who work in limited space. A short sword is a proud symbol for that specialists like tank commander, pilots, submariners and others.

If you say they havn't enough swords so they use "old" wakizashi to bring it to war, than this is an insult for the soldier, because he is to poor or to bad to carry a long sword.

A short gunto is a symbol and a award for the officer who carried it because he was not a normal soldier.

 

Thats my last thoughts on this.

 

Chris,

 

The issue guys have with the "crew gunto" label is there was no such official term in the IJA. There were official "Types" (94, 95, 97, 98, etc) but not "crew". I understand the image created by Ohmura-san's page, but as good as he was, there has been MUCH research into the National Archives on this. Like you point out, if a guy wanted to use a waki because he worked a tank or aircraft, that was his choice. But it was just a waki. There are blade types (tanto, waki, katana, etc) and Types. Other than the contengency models (Rinji), there are no other official labels.

 

As collectors we throw some labels around because they have been adopted by our world, and that does help communicate something specific to others, but if it's different than official lingo, it can run aground with guys that get more deeply into the craft.

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Honestly, I think maybe a 5/10 or so, but it also depends on the owner. Probably more with the mounts. I personally, if in full polish, would rate it higher even mumei, but that's because I love guntovmounted blades and koto wakizashi, and it looks that has an ubu nakago and still healthy!

 

Is it worth a shinsa submittal and a full polish? That depends on you! Are you planning on keeping the blade to cherish and pass on to family, or study as much, enjoy it as long as possible, With the details visible, the blade is really nice! And as stated, the mounts are the icibg on the cake, especially for wartime collectors. But rhe cost of polish, shirasaya, shinsa can bring the price to be more than the blade, but if you intend to keep it, definitely worth it, if not financially.

 

As for the polish itself, I agree with the others, possibly someone used acid to bring out the details quick. Unfortunately, that can be a bad thing as it seeps into the porous steel of older blades and can eat the steel from the inside out. Most recommend a sodium bicarbonate bath to neutralize the acid, but should see what others say.

 

Agree with the statements, although surely some wakizashi probably did end the hands of those who served in closed quarters. When one looks at it, it isn't really much shorter than standard sized daito. But every inch counts, and some true, some not, some carried smaller pistols as such. I think its true though that the crew gunto statement could be a marketing term, the same as how the last Mauser Lugers with their deep dark bluing and black grips came to be known as "Black Widows."

 

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

 

Prior to today, we were thinking about keeping it since it's our first ever WWII-era sword find. But after researching the cost for minor restoration and/or professional polishing, that cost is just too great and we decided to place it on the market for folks such as yourself and other collectors of such pieces to appreciate and enjoy. It's really a nice sword and it deserves to be placed within a home where in can be loved, appreciated, preserved, studied and passed down to future generations who can and will do the same.

 

Thanks again everyone for sharing your time, knowledge and kind truthful thoughts......... most, most appreciated! 

 

Thank you all!  

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