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tanto kashira tsuba koto

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#1 Dreg

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 05:20 PM

Just acquired this beautiful tanto, and I'm trying to get a little more information. This struck me as a possible masamune copy, and based on the characteristics, my mostly amateur eye is guessing the blade is muromachi, and I could certainly be wrong!
I am writing because I have had a difficult time finding much on hamidashi tsuba, and it looks as though every Hung matches. I still have not received the sword (bought through a buyer in Japan), and only have these photos for now. Any guesses as to age/maker, or any information is greatly appreciated!

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Dave Regan


#2 Dreg

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 05:22 PM

And while this was listed as mumei, I can still see some marks left from what appears to be a signature. The nakago shows signs of aging, and it's quite hard to see, maybe pieces of two kanji remaining.

Dave Regan


#3 ggil

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 08:59 PM

From what I recall about masamune (we had a soden-bizen kantei blade this Sunday) his works are thick and wide, often having wild hamon that goes quite a ways into the ha. The Soshu style of making blades so hardened in the edge (having profuse nie) with so much meat in them, so that they could cut through many less hearty blades. The soshu style was so popular that it proliferated throughout Japan during the late 1200's. The nanbokucho era blades reflect the popularity of the soshu blade advancements, in their huge sizes and extreme edge hardening, etc. The soden-bizen blade we saw had masame near the ha which changed to itame in the balance. The pattern was midare with choji, and the blade reflected bizen (has some utsuri and vivid choji parts, with itame and maybe mokume grain), but was drastically thick (maybe 14 mm at widest kasane, having diamond-ish (?moroha?) cross section mind you) and wide, with hamon wildly and thickly done in parts, with some small tobiyaki, and all the nie you expect from soshu. The masame in the ha made very vivid hamon activities also. While the blade was freaking huge and had to weigh a good bit, the thing didn't feel heavy at all. Just goes to show the attention to detail of the smith maybe, or an understanding of mass distribution who knows...

Your blade doesn't make me think soshu den, but koto: due to many polishes (ha has receded from ha-machi), but lacking reverse curvature makes me think not very old. Maybe it's just the relative size difference, but to me soshu works have smallish looking nakago. Yours has a larger looking one, just my 2 cents.

Don't really know, but I wanted to put out the bit about soshu den. Please correct my errors/generalities, becuase I'm just beginning to learn nihonto.

Also, this post is in tosugo section, so maybe nobody interested will see it???
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Grant G.


#4 Hamfish

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:51 AM

from the bad pics may guess is sue mino,

 

its seen a polish or 2


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#5 Dreg

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

From what I recall about masamune (we had a soden-bizen kantei blade this Sunday) his works are thick and wide, often having wild hamon that goes quite a ways into the ha. The Soshu style of making blades so hardened in the edge (having profuse nie) with so much meat in them, so that they could cut through many less hearty blades. The soshu style was so popular that it proliferated throughout Japan during the late 1200's. The nanbokucho era blades reflect the popularity of the soshu blade advancements, in their huge sizes and extreme edge hardening, etc. The soden-bizen blade we saw had masame near the ha which changed to itame in the balance. The pattern was midare with choji, and the blade reflected bizen (has some utsuri and vivid choji parts, with itame and maybe mokume grain), but was drastically thick (maybe 14 mm at widest kasane, having diamond-ish (?moroha?) cross section mind you) and wide, with hamon wildly and thickly done in parts, with some small tobiyaki, and all the nie you expect from soshu. The masame in the ha made very vivid hamon activities also. While the blade was freaking huge and had to weigh a good bit, the thing didn't feel heavy at all. Just goes to show the attention to detail of the smith maybe, or an understanding of mass distribution who knows...

Your blade doesn't make me think soshu den, but koto: due to many polishes (ha has receded from ha-machi), but lacking reverse curvature makes me think not very old. Maybe it's just the relative size difference, but to me soshu works have smallish looking nakago. Yours has a larger looking one, just my 2 cents.

Don't really know, but I wanted to put out the bit about soshu den. Please correct my errors/generalities, becuase I'm just beginning to learn nihonto.

Also, this post is in tosugo section, so maybe nobody interested will see it???

It's in the tosugo section because I am curious about the furniture, more than anything. It's really difficult to make too many judgments about the blade from the photos, I figure I'll submit it once it's in my hands and I can photograph it.

I know very little about schools for tsuba, particularly hamidashi, and I was curious as to whom may have made this set, which appear to match.

Thank you for the thoughts on the blade though! I will post proper pictures once it's here!

Dave Regan


#6 Dreg

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

I really don't mean to make this about the blade yet, but just so anyone who is curious has it, I do have some measurements.

Hawatari 26.4cm
Sori .2cm
Nagasaki 42cm

Dave Regan


#7 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:54 AM

.....Nagasa is the term you should use for the length of the cutting edge, & hawatari for overall blade length. .....

Edited by admin

 

Ken



#8 Guido Schiller

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 02:00 PM

deleted

Edited by Guido Schiller, 23 September 2017 - 11:11 AM.

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#9 Geraint

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:12 AM

Aaaaaannnndddd!  Back to topic!

 

Dave, I think the reason you are getting very little comment about the fittings is that there is not a lot to say.  Iron fuchi and I presume kashira in rough shape and fairly generic, very hard to suggest anything about a school here.  Menuki might be puppies at play and of course a hamidashi tsuba about which, as you say, there seems to be very little information.  What look like grey marks to the right might be the remains of silver nunome, I have seen a few of these with that style of decoration, usually cherry blossoms and sometimes suggested to be Higo in origin but we are clutching at straws here given these images. 

 

Sorry that this adds almost nothing to what you know but it might provoke someone else to make a suggestion.

 

All the best.


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Geraint

#10 Dreg

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:08 PM

I appreciate all the information. I misspoke on the anatomy of the sword! My aplologies.

Dave Regan


#11 Dreg

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:14 PM

Aaaaaannnndddd! Back to topic!

Dave, I think the reason you are getting very little comment about the fittings is that there is not a lot to say. Iron fuchi and I presume kashira in rough shape and fairly generic, very hard to suggest anything about a school here. Menuki might be puppies at play and of course a hamidashi tsuba about which, as you say, there seems to be very little information. What look like grey marks to the right might be the remains of silver nunome, I have seen a few of these with that style of decoration, usually cherry blossoms and sometimes suggested to be Higo in origin but we are clutching at straws here given these images.

Sorry that this adds almost nothing to what you know but it might provoke someone else to make a suggestion.

All the best.


Thank you for the follow up! I keep forgetting how particular folks can be about this stuff, and it almost keeps me from saying anything for fear that I will reveal my own ignorance, despite my attempts to be clear that I am haha.
I’m just curious, not really anything greater than that. I wasn’t sure how generic the fittings were, I happened to find them very attractive, even in spite of age and condition. Wabi sabi, if you will. I am fully engaged in study, but I am still very new, and have been fortunate enough to have some nice pieces in my humble collection. I found this tanto interesting, I am a big fan of what I know from soshu den and sue mino, and I saw this for a very fair price, and so the rest is history. It has to clear customs before it’s in my hands, at which time I will post better photos.
All of these questions are geared to help further educate me on my purchases, and at the moment, im just trying to find out everything I can about my pieces, so that when it’s time to pass them on, someone else will know who made them.
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Dave Regan


#12 Dreg

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:31 PM

.....Nagasa is the term you should use for the length of the cutting edge, & hawatari for overall blade length. .....

Edited by admin

Ken

I misspoke. Also, autocorrect on the phone likes to make nagasa into Nagasaki. Apologies all around.


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Dave Regan






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