Muramasa Tanto On Ebay

[Blagoy]

One more time Muramasa tanto came up on ebay. The question is why the owner does not submit it to shinsa and sell it with green paper, when they are no more legit? The signature and nakago looks proper to my untrained eyes, but the hamon it's not what you expect from Muramasa. What do you think it is a gimei ?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TANTO-Antique-Japanese-Sword-NBTHK-Signed-MURAMASA-NO-RESERVE-/162626529412?hash=item25dd4be884:g:01AAAOSw8apZh7Ig

 

 

[Gakusee]

https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=289#more-289

[Gakusee]

edit to previous post: to me this has a wrong sequence of chiselling the strokes of the Mei (as well as their execution) and that is why I think it is gimei.

[Vermithrax16]

But the sellers name is Muramasa1! Gotta be real.......

[Blagoy]

Michael, thanks for the quick response and for the link about green paper. I was curious, what members think about it. I found it for sale on Muramasa.us 

 

http://www.muramasa.us/for-sale-1.html

[Brian]

It's for sale by a longtime member here.
The older papers have been discussed to death. No more discussion about that on an ongoing auction. You can always send the seller questions if you have any.
 

[Blagoy]

Brian, if you want delete it. I just want opinion about the blade from the member of the board. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Red Sun]

Putting the signature to one side, it is a very nice blade.

 

But why do so few Americans like to ship to UK? 

[Stephen]

Blagoy, why not PM the member?

 

Neil, I ship to all countries, middle man fees are small compared to not getting what you want.

[bigjohnshea]

edit to previous post: to me this has a wrong sequence of chiselling the strokes of the Mei (as well as their execution) and that is why I think it is gimei.

Sorry but you are incorrect about the sequence of strokes. If you look closely at numerous examples online, you'll see that there are variations of overlapping between the verticle and horizontal strokes of the "Mura" character. Most prominently the blade in the Tokyo museum which has both verticle strokes overlapping the hosrizontal.

 

As a general comment,

 

This tanto has nearly all the features of a Nidai Muramasa:

 

If you compare the features of this blade to the information available about the mutlitple generations of Muramasa in the excellent document online "Muramasa: How to Distinguish the Generations", as well as other sources online, and in texts, this tanto is the most likely the work of Nidai Muramasa. The mei is most suggestive of a second or third generation Muramasa, but the shape of the nakago and the features of the hamon are more suggestive of the Nidai than the Sandai. The Nidai's work tends to be less adherent to symmetry on either side of the blade. Tantos by the Nidai tend to have a turn back after the boshi that is longer and/or thinner on one side than the other.

 

Additionally, this seller is not only a long time member of this page, but only collects Muramasa. He has also sold numerous Muramasa blades to perfectly happy buyers. This tanto was sold originally from the collection of the Tsuchiya clan by Kimura San, a well respected merchant in Saitama, and was sold along with 9 other blades from the same collection. It is not at all uncommon to have blades in older family collections sell without being repapered, as the cost and time associated with repapering is often prohibitive give the number of blades involved and potential motives for selling.

 

Additionally, the current seller may never have sent the blade for new papers simply because they have other blades they favor getting papered first, for sales purposes, etc. There are many good reasons, including just being happy with the blade and the current paper as it is.

 

The warning link concerning green paper's aside,

Not everything with a green paper is a potential fraud. Use your eyes and your knowledge and you can see authenticity regardless of papers or none.

 

Cheers.

[Gakusee]

John

I am in a difficult situation: I have had positive experiences with Derek and can attest to his excellent commercial background and personal qualities and have bought from him without problems. However, you have also publicly thrown the gauntlet and why should we share only positive thoughts? This is fruther compounded by the fact this is an ongoing sale and we are not doing anyone many favours. I have numerous reasons to question the mei and nakago, notwithstanding this is a good blade and has some characteristics of a Muramasa blade (of course it should, otherwise why even bother).

I agree on the kaeri, the rectangular nakago mune (only Nidai) and perhaps the hada points which could indicate a Muramasa here. Some of the hamon looks to point in that direction too but from the pictures I cannot see the trademark hataraki I would expect there.

 

However, as you have taken the time to write such an extensive post, let me explain my own thinking. I did not write it lightly and off the cuff, exactly because I am aware of the background of Derek and have had positive experiences. Again, I am not an expert but have been collecting Muramasa for a while as well (10+ years).

 

- on the balance of probabilities given the 15-20 Muramasa blades I have seen in person (unfortunately I own or have owned only 2 papered, signed ones myself - one with Hozon and one with THozon, so current papers) and my various reference tomes (probably with 100 examples altogether), in all the officially papered cases I have seen the third (horizontal long) Mura stroke crosses the second (left vertical) and not the other way around. Please refer not only to the document you mention but also Sato's Ise No Toko publication, Fujishiro, Nihonto Koza, Markus's books etc.

- furthermore, the small diagonal atari at the bottom right of Mura normally intersects the second vertical stroke precisely at the junction - here it is as though someone drew the second vertical stroke too long and tried to overcompensate by pushing the small diagonal stroke further up. Not what the shodai/nidai did.

- a National Museum katana of which I have a photo shows the sequence of strokes as I describe it. I think you are referring to the shodai blade on Derek's website but only the shodai wrote the Mura kanji properly with two separate characters and in a different handwriting from the conjoined Mura kanji here. The one on this tanto, is the more common, later, simplified version where the horizontal long stroke is always third and crosses over the second, left vertical stroke.

- the nakago seems to have been reshaped - look at both sides and notice the hammering. Why? Normally not necessary for tanto unless someone in the past tried to give it a more tanagobara shape than origininally

- again, on the balance of probabilities and given that you have pretty much annual shinsa in the US with the NTHK coming there regularly, it is relatively affordable and efficient to submit it for an NTHK paper even if you do not wish to bother with the NBTHK. I am aware that most of you guys go to these shows and it would have been a no-brainer to submit. Especially if you are selling a not particularly cheap item.

 

In any case, I could go on with my thinking and other reasons but people need to judge the blade on its merits. It is a nice enough tanto. As it is we are both speculating and have or own reasoning.

It is for a potential buyer to speak with Derek about this (e.g. has it been submitted for NBTHK or NTHK papers recently?) and also, as importantly, inspect the blade in hand. I am judging here by pictures and this is always fraught with risk.

 

Again, I wish to emphasise that I have had positive, honest dealings with the seller here and am expressing personal thoughts on this specific tanto.

[bigjohnshea]

Didn't intend to "challenge" you, just a statement of facts concerning your perception of the strokes in the mei. Your extensive commentary on this topic still does not fuel a significant concern for this being gimei. The signature appears perfectly genuine, and minor details like strokes are not documented well enough for particular smiths (particularly a school like Sengo with relatively few examples) to justify claiming gimei on that basis. More below about this...

 

The nakago shows no signs of being reshaped. I think you are reaching on this comment, which is why you did not mention this in your initial comments. Do not mean to offend. Just my perception...

 

It is no longer an active listing, btw. I'm buying it and keeping it, and have no intention of submitting for shinsa because I'm convinced it is real. I don't need NBTHK or NTHK to tell me what I should believe. Opinions between collectors are no different than opinions from shinsa. There is a reason the NBTHK never puts generations of Muramasa on their papers. Uncertainty is everywhere in this realm of collectibles because history is often unverifiable, and the fund of knowledge surrounding a school/smith will often change. If I submitted this tanto ten times to the NTHK I'd probably get all four different results concerning generation and/or time it was created: gimei, shodai, nidai, sandai, with multiples of one or others. So why bother...? Even if it comes with THozon papers, resubmitting twenty years from now with slightly different papers may get it a lower or higher paper. So again, what difference does it make if I submit? Even with a TJuyo paper in the sale what matters most is if I trust who I buy it from, my own knowledge of the school, and the features of the blade.

 

Take care.

[Gakusee]

Excellent, John, I am glad this is amicable. I hope you enjoy it and take care of it for what it is - that is the most important thing. We need to have our differences - otherwise we shall be chasing the same items. As I said, I bore no ill intention.

By the way - the NBTHK does put the generations on papers but only very occasionally. Therefore, we need to study extra hard and reach our own conclusions. Unfortunately the dated blades (which one can definitely attribute as they are dated and original) are mostly beyond the reach of us, non-Japanese.

Take care as well.

[mywei]

I think Darcy has written a post on another thread about the "I don't need NBTHK or NTHK to tell me what I should believe" thought process. Nothing wrong with having conviction in your own judgement, but from a practical standpoint if a time came to sell-on your tanto, you will have to convince the other party in your belief, which could be a bit challenging I suppose

[bigjohnshea]

Matt,

That goes without saying.

 

I know Darcy well and have learned alot from him in the past years. He's a merchant not a collector. Bottom line. I think similarly about other collectibles I sell, primarily meteorites. If push came to shove there is only a short list of maybe 50 specimens in my collection of 500+ that I would not sell. Similarly to nihonto though, for those 50 specimens, great provenance (the equivalent of shinsa for meteorites) is good to have, but I don't need it as long as I trust who I bought it from, and know what I'm buying well enough.

 

Furthermore, I've been collecting and selling merteorites long enough to know that the only people who really know more about them than I do is a select handful of scientists. Darcy can likely say the same thing about Nihonto and Tanobe Sensei, or someone with an equivalent knowledge to Tanobe Sensei. That does not mean Darcy will want the opinion of Tanobe Sensei when he is convinced he knows what he has, and definitely wants to keep it to himself. Though I wonder if that would ever happen... I could have never sold a Go Yoshihiro to someone else...

 

To make a long topic even longer, in my opinion, the mentality of "I must submit to shinsa in order to know what this is", is really only shared by those who intend to sell eventually, are uncertain of their purchase, or are uncertain of what they should learn from the blade.

 

I know what I need to learn from this tanto. Nothing. I know what I'm going to sell this tanto for. Nothing. I do not lack certainty, and I want for nothing from this tanto but the joy of owning it, so shinsa is of no use to me in regard to this tanto.

[paulb]

John and Michael

Firstly and I hope without sounding patronising can I say how much I appreciated the tone of your posts to each other. Too often here and in other places differences in opinion often degenerate in to bad tempred and direspectful exchanges. This series of posts is a good example of how such discussions should proceed. Thank you both.

John,

On the subject of papering I find myself bordering on schizophrenia with regard to my attitude to papers. There is a big part of me that draws great comfort from a blade I am interested in having high level papers, it offers me a comfort blanket when I lack confidence in my own judgement. On the other hand if i have a blade with a lower level paper confirming an attribution then I start to think why do I need more? If the attribution is there all a higher level paper does is confirm quality and that after many years of study is something I should and I stress should be able to determine for myself.

However you are absolutley right when it becomes important is when you want to sell and certainly when it comes to selling something that is worthy of higher level papers than it has it becomes a balancing act between the time it would tke to get them, the added value if successful and the potential reduction in value if it goes from a "possible" juyo to a failed juyo.

.There is no doubt that papers aid a sale. I am afraid that increasingly they are used as a substitute for effort and study. No matter how much one argues " I know what it is so don't need papers to tell me" the cold commercial reality is that to sell easily papers are becoming almost essential.

There just isn't a single catch all answer and at the end of the day we all have to do what we feel is right for us and we are comfortable with

[bigjohnshea]

Paul,

Agree entirely.

 

On a slightly different topic, I know many people view green papers as questionable due to the development of poor standards in the NBTHK, and this looming awful threat of Yakuza involvement; which feels like it is thrown around more as a twist to an interesting story than an actual piece of evidence to invalidate a paper. At the end of the day this tanto was actually sold out of the collection of an historic family, by a well respected merchant in Japan, to a well known collector, who is about as close to an expert on Muramasa as I have ever seen here in the US, and has a great track record with his own buyers. In the meteorite world, we call that "very good provenance." The only way it could get better is if a museum owned it for a while then deaccessioned it, and it had a TJuyo paper. :-) But in that case, I wouldn't be able to afford it at all.

 

Yes, at the end of the day I would still need the new official awesome shinsa paper to max out its value in a sale, but the family this tanto came out of actually has a trail of history that practically reaches back to the days of Muramasa himself. No, it doesn't make the green paper any more valid, but it does make me a lot less concerned that the Yakuza or poor shinsa standards earned it the paper.

[paulb]

Hi John

Unfortunately it only took a few bad papers to invalidate so many. I tend to agree with you that many of these papers were right. As I understand it (but much more than second hand story) the problems came out ofthe regional offices rather than the HQ so if from Tokyo it is less likely to be wrong. I understand totally the point often made, especially by Darcy, regarding the commercial worthlessness of old papers. If a blade was coming out of Japan with old papers it is reasonable to ask why- they should have been resubmtted. If a blade has been in the USA or Europe for 40+ years then repapering becomes a much bigger issue and the owner has to determine the merit of doing it. Like Darcy I have heard all the old arguments about"Once in Japan they wouldnt let it back out, it's too important" and such like which frankly I think are very weak. However you have blade with strong provenance which others have been happy is authentic and you hae no intention of selling at present. If you are happy with the attribution and enjoying the blade then there should be no issue. Enjoy it!!

BTW if you get the chance take a look at a BBC programme fake or fortune which ran here last Sunday evening. A dealer and one of the presenters bought a painting twice over 25 years because he thought it was by John Constable but each time he was unable to prove it. Eventually he sold it to a collector for £35K. The programme tried to prove whether it as right or not and were not only able to prove it forensically but were able to trace its provenance back to John Constable's son. End result it was passed as authentic and valued at 2.5M+

I don't know how the dealer didn't scream but he was very positive about it!

Provenance is worth a great deal

[bigjohnshea]

Interesting story. Will try to find that program.

 

In the meteorite world the real equivalent to shinsa for a rare specimen is testing the specimen in a lab and having it "paired" to the data collected from the larger mass it supposedly originated from. This is more often than not an impossible task (labs are overwhelmed as it is, and there are not many experts to begin with) and a destructive process as well to the specimen in question. So provenance is even more valuable in that setting. I've become accustomed to this, but I could see how nihonto collectors may not put as much faith in provenance as I do.

[Darcy]

Pardon me John, but:

 

 

 

I know Darcy well and have learned alot from him in the past years. He's a merchant not a collector. Bottom line.

 

You don't know me well. We've had some email discussions. 

 

And this line is meant to discredit me, saying that my comments are not worthy of being taken seriously because I sell swords. 

 

My advice on green papers and holding oneself as an expert over the NBTHK and NTHK is meant to protect people from being defrauded. I don't have any horse in the game on a Muramasa selling for 10-20% of market price with a class of papers well known to be unreliable. 

 

Two people have horses in that race, the seller, and the buyer. The seller can distance himself from the situation by saying here it is, you decide. I know that if I were selling a Muramasa I would be getting Hozon on it so I can ask $25k instead of $5k.

 

The seller did not ask a price that represents a guarantee of legitimacy for Muramasa. Anyone with some operational experience in Nihonto has to understand that. 

 

Please do not try to tar me as a dealer as a means of discrediting advice you don't want to hear. Please do not claim you "know me well" when you don't and use that to preface your dismissal of my advice as being dealer talk. I don't deserve either. 

 

One reason why people like me do not try to wisen up chumps in the first place is because when you drag someone kicking and screaming into the light you get punched in the face as they flail their arms and legs about. They do not want to hear it, they want to remain in the land where their belief is not challenged.

 

By keeping this blade and not asking anyone, you can honestly try to sell it to the next person one day as an unknown quantity and this is one reason why people will not want to get an answer on a controversial blade.

 

If this were me I would put these green papers in the garbage now so that the blade doesn't injure someone in the future and sell it unpapered when the time comes or with Hozon or an NTHK paper if either one of those panels will agree on it.

 

This is part of the disease on these green papered blades and each collector who buys into this idea spreads the disease one more step down the line. Forever someone is going to want to believe the dream on this, and instead of talking to experts and learning from them, when these experts do not want to put their blessing on this treasure, it creates the desire to attack the experts. 

 

You can attack the ideas if you want and form your own conclusions. You can believe in this blade if you want, nobody will tell you that you do not have a right to come to your own conclusion: you do.

 

You don't have the right to attack my credibility when I am the one not financially involved in this transaction. 

 

Honestly, it is a difficult moment whenever I am faced with these situations and half the time I don't say anything and I let people continue flounder in the dark. I know if I say what I know it is going to create backlash: people who have something at stake, for instance owners of and future sellers of green papered blades, will defend what they have because they want to maintain their value.

 

There are a lot more of them than me and it's easy to die a death of a thousand cuts as everyone who owns a green papered Masamune takes aim at me because they want a place to deposit their Masamune in the future. 

 

I do not take financial benefit out of helping people avoid fraud, other than helping to bring a bit of order to the community and not see newbies chased off as soon as they find out they got defrauded on their first blade by an old timer. In that manner, everyone benefits. We have more people in the hobby, there is more demand for legitimate things, and fewer newbies can get raped by people who have been around the track already.

 

This is a game of musical chairs fraud in this hobby. People get burned and rarely eat the mistake but pass it off to the next person. This causes the next person to have to either absorb the fraud or pass it off. Usually the next step after absorbing it or passing it off is "is this hobby worthwhile for me to stay in?" The answer to that more often than not is no.

 

So, no, I am not advancing some fraud-proofing advice in order to help myself out and it should not be dismissed because I said it as a dealer. 

 

No, you are not better than me nor is your knowledge better than mine because you are a collector. 

 

If anything you are the one who will benefit if you can convince other people that this is a legitimate blade, not me, so if you want to consider anyone being in the crosshairs of mixed motives at this point, it's only you. Don't drag me into that.

 

You are aware of the risks in a piece like this and you bought it. Even though it is at 10-20% of a low or no risk Muramasa price in the marketplace, you don't think that this signals any issue with the reliability of the attribution it carries. Fine, maybe you are right, but you won't follow up either to get the answer of what the experts have to say on this blade so you will never get confirmation.

 

I don't know how you became an expert higher than the NBTHK and NTHK so that they don't have to tell you what you have. We all rely on them to tell us what we have every day. But that's up to you. Lots of guys have come and gone with this opinion and I know what badbadbaddealers say about them when they light up their cigars and smile.

 

So, believe what you want. I will not tell you what to believe.

 

However, it's an angering moment when I try to do something right for the community and people use that to attack my credibility. That's why others stay silent, they are smarter than me. And why I stay silent half the time, because I need my head to stay on my shoulders. A lot of the time I try to at least hint when I can't say the full story because of the attacks it will bring me. It's not the people I'm trying to help that are going to try to remove my head.

 

As to this:

 

That does not mean Darcy will want the opinion of Tanobe Sensei when he is convinced he knows what he has, and definitely wants to keep it to himself.

 

I go straight to Tanobe sensei and I take his guidance and correction. I don't pretend to know more than him and I am not one of these guys who "knows what he has." I have an opinion. If someone with this level of experience and knowledge tells me my opinion is wrong, I listen to it and I learn from it and I adjust my opinion. 

 

I know that any piece I have that I formulate my own opinion on, it may be wrong, because I am not stupid enough to think that my opinion lies at the same level as Japanese experts who have their life into this. 

 

Furthermore, I relish the opportunity to test my opinion. So, if I found a blade I think is Muramasa, instead of hiding it from the experts because "I know what I have" and then keeping my head firmly stuck in the sand and attacking the credibility of anyone who might disagree with my opinion, I bring it straight to the guys who know better than me and say, I think this, what do you think?

 

In the case where I thought I had a Shizu I went out and asked and they all said Shinto. I sold it as Shinto, I didn't mind finding out I was wrong and I didn't advance my theory to sell it vs. what the experts had to say. When I thought I had a Nobukuni and Tanobe sensei said probably Soshu Sadamune, I sold that as Nanbokucho Soshu because his opinion and mine overlapped with this information. When you sell such a blade under that title and then show him the letter after he bought it that he has a 50/50 chance of winning a major lottery on that blade, that is a good kind of thing to disclose after the fact.

 

I did not think Sadamune when I found that blade but if I was afraid of the expert opinions and didn't ask, I'd never learn anything.

 

And on the day when Tanobe sensei hands me a blade and asks me what it is, and I say Masamune, and I ask him what it is, and he says "I don't know yet, no papers, no decision yet." One year later I see that blade pass Juyo as Masamune, I feel good about what I said but I don't get to that point without sticking out my neck and bringing in things and being wrong and then learning from the experience.

 

You can never learn anything if you already think you know.

 

The judgment of that level of expert always has value in it: PARTICULARLY WHEN HE TELLS YOU YOU ARE WRONG. That's how you improve. If nobody stands up and says no, you're wrong, you never get better, you just flail around in the dark with no metric and no frame of reference to decide which way is up.

 

With Tanobe sensei you always need to walk in and be ready to be told you were wrong, and listen, and adjust yourself to match reality instead of adjusting reality to match yourself.

 

Right now I have an amazing Takagi Sadamune that just passed Juyo and hasn't gotten its papers yet, and I think it is Soshu Sadamune. I am bringing that blade to Tanobe sensei and I am not selling it until I can talk to him face to face over this.

 

I want to get his guidance. Is this a conservative judgment that he will weigh in on and does it have a chance at reattribution at Tokuju? If so I will try to advance that ball.

 

I don't "know what I have", I put this blade to my own kantei as Soshu Sadamune before hearing how it papered, and I hope I am right. I am not going to sell this and pass this line on to a sucker that it IS Soshu Sadamune, and they need to "know what they have" and just don't ask the Japanese experts but trust your gut. If Tanobe sensei says nope, this is dead on Takagi Sadamune, that's how it will be sold and I will use this information to tune my own knowledge about the grey area between the smiths. That grey area will come more into focus for me.

 

I will not stick my head in the sand however, out of pride or greed, and say the experts are wrong and I know what I have.

 

These assumptions you are making about me: really, I am here. I can be asked. I don't know who made you an expert on what I do and don't do, but you're flat out wrong on both counts here. Adjust your judgment at least where it comes to me, but if you want to go around and believe in $5k Muramasa being sold on ebay instead of having the papers fixed and going into a shop in Ginza, that is a belief you are welcome to have. I can't say that is a guarantee of it being no good, but it is pretty close. If you want to roll the dice, you roll the dice, and if you win, you win. But all of the evidence points to this being a risky place to go to.

 

As long as you are cognizant of the risk, you have no problems then at all. You will win, or you will lose on your gambit. But you don't get to plug your ears and say "I can't hear you" when people say that there are weak indications in a situation like this and this type of thing more than any other requires experts to weigh in and analyze.

 

My job trying to help noobs not get suckered into green papered Kotetsu ends with saying, here is a seatbelt, here is why you should use it. If someone wants to say "pfft, I don't need one, I'm a good driver," I don't argue with that. 

 

I'll let the car accident confirm what I said.

 

I'm trying to avoid NMB because of stuff like this at the moment. I won't be able to follow up. I wish I wouldn't have to launch this kind of missile and would just let my blog speak for itself, but I have to write once someone starts saying what I do and don't do and why I do it.

[bigjohnshea]

Jesus H Christ...

This is precisely the reason why I barely come here any more... So much of this "you're attacking me" crap...

 

Darcy,

Grow up. I wasn't attacking you, I was stating my opinion of why you have the perspectives you have, and as someone who makes some part of a living selling high end collectibles like meteorites, yes, I do "know" people like you.

 

FYI, your opinions are not all correct just because you are who you are. Thanks for the "smack down" or whatever you think this was up above, but in reality, the Japanese merchant who sold it with green papers is just as respected as you are, so maybe your wisdom is not as universally valid as you think it is...

 

If I thought this couldn't pass shinsa I wouldn't buy it at all. Regardless of my income I don't have enough money to waste it on tantos that I think will fail shinsa. What a ridiculous notion...

 

I'm not going to reveal my purchase price but it is not as low as 5500$. Wish it were... Would save myself a bundle...

 

I've said enough and I have no skin in the sword sales arena to justify taking the time to argue with you. I actually did consider you something of a friend and potential source for future purchases until now, but I guess your hypervigilant attitude toward any commentary at all about you has put an end to that...

 

Take care everyone,

John A. Shea, MD

[Brian]

ALL of you.......get over this "It's the NMB's fault that people are able to express opinions that I don't agree with" bull$#@%.
Getting a little tired of people commenting that they don't participate because of someone expressing a view counter to what they believe, or it opening a can of worms and a debate.
I am NOT going to censor people constantly and all of you need to grow a set of balls and a thicker skin. This goes out to everyone. This is not a safe space for the snowflakes. You do not get immunity from opinion here.
Darcy had a right to defend his name. But Darcy....if you think ANYONE reading the sentence John wrote took it literally, or as a real slander of your name...think again. Anyone reading that knows it isn't based on facts and NO-ONE gave it more than a half second though. Your reputation and writing overrides that comment by FAR. The SAME reputation solidly built and established here on the forum. It is exactly your presence here that negates comments like that.

And John...Darcy has a huge web presence to protect. And his name, which he has invested a HUGE amount of time, money and effort to build. And knowing him from his online presence, how could you POSSIBLY think he wouldn't be entitled to a rebuttal of what is literally slurring his integrity?

Just get over it all of you. I feel bad for the seller of the sword. He didn't want this item to cause a scene, and it is exactly my own policy of NOT censoring things that made me decide to let the discussion continue.
I will not let this forum become pc, or a clone of the world's universities where opinions are censored and everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as it matches the prevailing one.

Comments about how the NMB is somehow responsible for angst as just plain dumb. No different to the conversations that happen at sword shows or at meetings. So we have a wider audience. So what?
People have different opinions. By tomorrow, they are forgotten by all except those directly involved.

Think twice, type once. Save everyone a lot of grief.

[Jean]

John,

 

You are wrong on several levels, not talking about papers.

 

99% (because I don't want to say 100%) of dealers were at the beginning collectors and it is by the way of collecting that they have become dealers, Darcy is not an exception I am sure. Most of this collectors if not all have become dealers to improve their collections before doing it as a living.

 

A lot of dealers have collections you cannot even imagine. I know a Japanese dealer who has for sale lots of sword Juyo or Tokubetsu Juyo. But if you are introduced to him he will show you for study a part of his collection. Who can say he has been able to study in a row 12 koBizen swords, half of them signed, 12 ichimonji swords, 7 of them signed (and not by the character "ichi"), 12 swords Juyo and higher (ko Hoki, Miike, Awataguchi, Bizen Nagamitsu...).

 

 

Concerning origin of blades, I am very cautious as I have seen quite a lot of blades coming from Daimyo collections even with Hon'ami papers having had their attribution overturned by shinsa.

 

I have been a few times in Japan, visit quite a lot of dealers and attend 3 DTI. I have never seen one of these dealers selling a blade with green paper. The only one doing it (I am aware of) is Tsuruta san but he adds his guarantee of passing Shinsa. I have discussed this matter with people living in Japan and the general consensus was that no blades were "soldable" at the right price in Japan without a valid kanteisho and preferably a NBTHK one.

 

I won't say I find it strange that a Japanese dealer sells a saijo smith blade without a valid kanteisho (easy for him to get as it is his daily job) but I hope you have a guarantee of shinsa.