Thoughts On Tanto

[TheGermanBastard]

I have nothig to add. Nice blade.

[Frank B]

Thank you again for all the help. 

[Darcy]

I wrote this long and I deleted it all.

 

First, this crap about who needs papers, buy the blade, blah blah usually comes to me on my website.

 

It's almost always old guys who got ripped off. They have some junk that some dealer sold them that will never paper. The guy who sold it probably bought a  rusty mumei piece from this sucker at the same time, and brought it to Japan and got it attributed to Ichimonji or an equivalent.

And he left behind or traded or passed over or sold out a piece of junk.

 

In doing so he says:

 

"Don't send that to Japan. That blade is so good the Japanese are going to keep it and you won't ever get it back."

 

So that guy believes this line of crap. He believes he is special. He sells his rusty blade that ends up being an Ichimonji. He keeps the piece of junk. He is told "You have a good eye. You know what you own. You don't need papers to tell you this."

 

This insulates this piece from ever being put in front of a judge. The fakery is never exposed and if it is, this guy has huge doubts if nobody ever just simply confirms what he knows in his heart to be true.

 

These guys email me every few weeks with their garbage. 

 

They tell me they got it a long time ago and blah blah blah. I tell them well, if you want your Masamune to be accepted in the market, you need to get some attributions done.

 

This is where the resistance starts.

 

I am not sending it to Japan I am not blah blah I know this is legitimate I don't need papers blah blah.

 

I try hard to explain to them. I say look, your opinion is fine if you want to keep this. If you want to sell it, I can't stick my neck out on it and you need someone to judge it. It's got a good chance of not being legitimate.

 

Now, this is the part where they squint at me and look sideways. 

 

Their hands cover their item.

 

Their thoughts: "This guy is trying to steal my treasure."

 

For _____'s sake I do not want your steaming pile of crap. I am trying to give you the 1% chance that it might be legitimate to come true and I am not going to defraud the next guy the way you got defrauded. I don't say that, but as soon as they undergo the mood shift there is nowhere to take it. They vanish.

 

They look for someone else. They ask their question... but it's not an honest question. They are just asking for confirmation. To be blunt, they want someone to jerk them off. Oh yeah baby you are so smart you don't need no stinkin papers oh yeah baby you got real treasure baby yeah baby don't send it to Japan wait let me give you $100k for this sploosh.

 

I regret writing that.

 

But it needs to be said because this is what this crap is.

 

So please. Understand that this crap line of "you know what you got / you don't need papers" went out there to suckers and those suckers talked to other people who believed it. And those people went and posted it online and in messageboards and on mailing lists. And other people read that and transmitted it by word of mouth.

 

Russian propaganda says if you want something to be true, REPEAT IT. Repeat it enough and IT BECOMES TRUE. It obtains the perception of truth by constant repetition. Sooner or later, people do the repeating for you.

 

So, please wise up. You do need papers. If you read books, you need papers. If you think someone knows more than you, you need papers. 

 

The only guy I know who doesn't need papers is Tanobe sensei, because he writes them. But even he will defer to Honami Kotoku and Honami Koshu. And other experts do exist who don't need papers, none of whom are posting here, but they will defer to Tanobe sensei. Maybe some won't and hold themselves higher. But the point is that it is a very small crowd.

 

If you are not writing papers, then you need papers. Because if your expertise is not high enough that you can write judgments that everyone will accept, then you need to be listening to judges who know more than you. 

 

You are in this group, or you are not. I am not in that group, and none of you are either. So let it go.

 

It is a macho thing, to not need papers, to "know what you have" but these are all guys who never saw a great blade except through glass. How can they know what they have? They are perfectly comfortable challenging judges who judge in one month more good blades than that guy will see in his life.

 

What is the basis for this degree of macho arrogance?

 

Gullibility.

 

/puts on Morpheus hat

 

If something wants to be a Norishige, it needs to prove itself. The NBTHK has judged Norishige many times and has got some kicking around they can refer to. Why would they get all those right and then mess this up?

 

Why just this one? 

 

You think this is easy, to get this paper flipped?

 

If it was easy, do you think that a smart guy like Bob wouldn't already have done it? 

 

All of you who want to believe can probably offer him $10k right now and get yourself a nice cheap Norishige. If you don't need papers, if you want to "buy the blade" and you have that much faith in your opinion that you want to take it over the NBTHK, this is your time to shine my friend. You can get one for an 80% discount. Smells like a sweet bargain to me. 

 

Who's going to do it? 

 

Bob flat out described what happened to this blade and was 100% honest and offered his opinion that it is worth another shot. 

 

Maybe in 10 years. But for now, it is what it is and he said exactly how that happened. I mean the whole story is sitting there literally spitting in everyone's face. He's not hiding anything. But somehow, people dream the dream.

 

If you send this back in they will all take your money and chuckle and make the same attribution. These are not idiots. I don't know why people think they will act like idiots.

 

Send it to the NTHK if you want another opinion. Do that then decide what you want to do with this blade but there is no way you should rocket this right back to Japan unless you like setting money on fire. 

 

Maybe the NTHK will tell you what you want to hear. Probably they won't. Now you will have two sets of judges that are no good. 

 

EVERYONE says the same damn thing.

 

The judges are clueless (when they get an attribution they don't like). When the get a nice attribution, those judges suddenly get a lot smarter.

 

Now, you DO need to know what you have and you DO need to study and you DO that by studying the best blades. Ultimately you are free to spend your money however it makes you happy. Using a paper for support though is just being smart. It's underwriting your investment with the best expert opinions.

 

I do have a clear stone I would like to sell otherwise, trust me it's diamond, after all you have a good eye, you don't need a paper to tell you what to think do you? 

 

I also have a mint condition Honus Wagner card, totally not run off of a laser printer from a photoshop file I found on the internet, and you are so smart that you don't need someone else to tell you what you know in your heart to be true. I will sell it for only $5,000 and trust me, use your eyes and use your heart, I am completely not appealing to your sense of greed and desire to obtain something without paying for it and your sense of vanity for being a special person to have this opportunity come your way... it's none of that trust me just today is your lucky day.

 

After you buy that, I have some gold coins fresh from the mint, I bought them on volume discount so I can sell them to you at 20% of the market price of gold, because sir, I like the cut of your jib. In fact, if you buy 100 from me I will give you an additional 5% discount. You don't need to test them or have a assay done, that's just another form of paper and you can put this in your hand and you will know what you have is real.

 

Who needs papers.

 

I don't, I know what I have.

 

You don't, you know what you have.

 

Now, let's do some business, shall we?

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Darcy,

 

what you have written is very true but I think you may have gotten carried away a bit

 

I had deleted my lengthy answer in my last post, too as I felt it was no good as all has allready been said on this Tanto.

 

This blade had been on eBay for quite a while and did not sell. A lot of long term collectors had seen it there but did not buy it. I do not say that this blade is bad at all. I like it. It has nice workman ship ... BUT it is not a simple money maker. It had been offered by an expirienced dealer. I do not need any knowledge on Nihonto at all to say that sending it back to the NBTHK now is no good ... because if it was, then the dealer who sold that blade would have done this. Instead he choose to sell it for a price that is acceptable to him and someone bought it for a price acceptable to them. So both parties should be happy. End of line.

 

However dreaming of simply re-submitting this blade back to Shinsa and getting some attribution making it possible to turn it around for twice the initial purchase price bearly will work. If there was a good chance to this the original owner would have done so as he is not stupid at all. Atleast I think it is a good thing to believe otehr people not to be stupid. Thinking of oneself as the smartest guy in the room has a potential of unexpected failiure

 

Such money maker deals may work if you walk up to some garage sale and buy something from a totally unknowledgable dude for cheap money. But byuing from an expirienced dealer will give you the benefit of getting something for what it is likely worth but for sure not a 50% below value bargain ... if you did get that, then this dealer would long have been out of business.

 

It is what it is now.

 

Of course it can be resubmitted but the only thing for sure then is that it will beanother USD 500.00 tput owards a blade that will never be a really valueable thing in the end.

 

I feel this money should better be put twowards a Shirasaya that really fits it well. I can already see some rubbing to the polish and it would both be a pitty and a finiancial loss if the polish gets worn down by the blade housed in a poorly fitting Shirasaya that was taken from a different blade.

[TheGermanBastard]

The judges are clueless (when they get an attribution they don't like). When the get a nice attribution, those judges suddenly get a lot smarter.

 

 

I think likeable things are always more sexy than less admireable ones people prefer to believe in favorable things to them ,,, if there was only Hell in the bible it would not have become a best seller ...

[Jean]

IMHO, taking into account the modifications undergone by this tanto, no need to submit again. Even if nihonto at the beginning, it should rather be considered as a Curios

[Frank B]

I see what you mean Jean, but I think it's a little too far. Filing and repatinating dont take away its title as a nihonto in my opinion.

[Jean]

You are right Frank, but the fact that it was shortened in US to be used as Bowie makes me think of a Japanese Curios which is not pejorative, but very interesting much more interesting than a pure Shinshinto tanto. Now that the yasurime have been filed again is not necessarily a good thing as it could false the dating. That it is Japanese and already been papered proves its value in the eyes of the Japanese shinsa

 

The question is: is it suriage or O suriage? Probably only shortened a little (cut a bit) in this case the tanto was mumei. I expect a tanto by Norishige or Uda being a bit more rough than this one but the ones I have seen were signed. NBTHK has in its files thousands of references and seldom comes back on its decision. But, being mumei and if kanteied to koUda during a new NBTHK shinsa, it won't bring any money to the blade taking into account the attribution in the first shinsa. Uda school is not very "en vogue". Forget Norishige, NBTHK won't go this way, taking into account its first shinsa. Were I you, if not satisfied by NBTHK kanteisho, try NTHK in USA but there again forget Norishige.

 

 

Nevertheless, it is a piece of history of the relationship between Japan and USA in the 19th century and the way an American at this time could prefer a Tanto to a real Bowie.

[Frank B]

I agree with you on all accounts Jean.

[Frank B]

Anyone want to take a stab at translating the bowie handle signature?

[Jean]

Just a last thought Frank.

 

Do you think Bob Benson who has handled or polish hundreds of swords and see a score of Norishige would sell you a Tanto which could be a Norishige for a few k$ ?

 

When did the submitting occured? Before or after the nakago was repatinated and filed? I told you in my post before that it was a bad idea to have this implemented because it could give false indication of its age.

 

BTW,

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/saeki-norishige/index.html

[Frank B]

Jean, the owner gave it to Mr. Benson to polish. Mr. Benson then submitted the blade to shinsha, where it got ikkansai yoshihiro attribution. Mr. Benson was the one who handled everything, as mentioned earlier polished- then  submitted. 

[Jean]

Thanks Frank

 

It is interesting to try to retrace the story... it is quite clear now

[Brian]

For someone with an interest in both pre-1900 US knives and Bowies, AND Nihonto, this doesn't lose much value due to the conversion. In fact, historically it is a very interesting piece. Love the fact that the Bowie fittings are preserved. Tsunagi?
I like it a lot..not just as Nihonto but as an interesting cross-cultural item.

[Jean]

I fully agreed with Brian

[Frank B]

Fully agree as well, knowing the owner of the bowie would really put in in perspective. As to why he would choose a Japanese blade over an American one.

[KamakuraDani]

I remember this listing, you probably got a good deal on the blade. It is a fine muromachi era blade, and a historically interesting one as well. 

[Frank B]

Thank you, I agree on all accounts. 

[Vermithrax16]

Close this thread.

[Jean]

NBTHK opinion prevails as in shinsa team you have four or five of the greatest Nihonto Japanese experts having the largest available Japanese swordsmiths data base in the world