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Oppinion On Signature Welcome


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#1 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:32 AM

I say oppinion because it is pretty hard to read. My best guess is Kunimune. Looks pre Muromachi to me.

 

Further guesses are welcome.

 

Thank you

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#2 SteveM

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:07 AM

国定 Kunisada would be my guess.


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#3 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:34 AM

hello Steve,

 

thank you for your thoughts. Hmmm ... by now I can not rule this out either :)

 

What periode would you put on it?

 

Thank you


Luis


#4 Jean

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 09:36 AM

Sue Muromachi
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#5 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:14 AM

Sue Muromachi

 

Why do you think so?


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#6 Jim P

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:25 PM

My bet is with Jean, :)  and the best match I  was able to find was this Kunisada and he looks like a chance (国定), Tenbun  1532-1555, Mino

Steve, you amaze me :clap:  I could not see Kunisada even with my glasses on :)


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#7 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

Alternately, Masamune.

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#8 SteveM

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:07 PM

I should say that my confidence level on this is an unreassuring 50/50. I'm not finding a lot of two-kanji Kunisadas that could fit the bill. 

 

Masamune... also a possibility.


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#9 Jim P

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:33 PM

Ray that's what I thought but Kunisada was a good fit :laughing:  but looking at it a bit more Masamune is a better call

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#10 Jean

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:44 PM

Yes, but in this case, it would be earlier, end of Kamakura, beginning of Nambokucho but I am at a loss because in this time, wakizashi did not exist....
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#11 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:12 PM

If I sell it and it turns out to be true Masamune I will happily buy it abck and even pay for return postage :laughing:

 

So we have

 

- Kunimune

- Kunisada

- Masamune

 

I do not have the blade in hands yet so unfortunately I can neither provide better images nor try to bring out the Mei any better. My feeling was that it is Nambokucho. I do not think late Muromachi. The Nagako has no mor evisible Yasurimi ... with a late Muromachi Nagako I would expect them to be more present.


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#12 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:24 PM

It certainly looks to have alot of niku, points for the Soshu possibility.


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#13 raymondsinger

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:29 PM

With this sugata I would also lean towards Muromachi. To state the obvious, a mei of Masamune does not mean that:

  • It is an authentic signature
  • That this is the early Soshu smith (vs. others who used this same mei).

Best regards,

Ray


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#14 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:48 PM

hello Ray,

 

if it would wants to be THE Masamune by mere chance we can surely assume  we are looking at 99.9% Gimei ...

 

When I bought it I thought it was signed Kunimune but Masa may indeed be a better  call for the firs Kanji.

 

Without having it in hands it is not possible to judge on the state of the blade. However the decission on wheter it is worth of a polish will depend on who likely made it. In case of a Gimei or being Mid to late Muromachi by an average smithi I would not consider getting it polished due to not being economic. As the cost will outweight the value.

 

I had bought the blade at the estimated worth of its Fuchi / Kashira.

 

But if it is worth the effort I'd be happy to preserve the whole sword ... but since it will require a lot of work as the Koshirae is quite damagaed this has to be a reasonable decision. I enjoy bringing someothing out of teh woodwork back to live - but as most people I don't enjoy being buried.

 

hence I appreciate your valued feedback since getting it restored first and afterwards appraised would be a silly expensive lottery :)

 

Thank you for your thoughts


Luis


#15 Jean

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:17 PM

Of course, it is sue Muromachi, fyi Luis, except for one exception shown on the board, i have never seen a wakizashi forged in Nambokucho, and the one shown was late Nambokucho. Furthermore sugata (shobu zukuri) and nakago show sue Muromachi trade mark.

Luis, when Nambokucho, think to tachi, o suriage Tachi, katana, ko dashi, sunobi tanto ... but avoid thinking wakizashi, please :)
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#16 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:36 PM

Hello Jean,

 

thank you for your message. I do not want to take this offtopic too much but one question please.

 

How about pre Muromachi Naginata Naoshi shaped blades? Aren't they considered to be Wakizashi?


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#17 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:58 PM

http://www.christies...78-details.aspx

http://www.christies...00-details.aspx


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#18 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 06:00 PM

So now, you have seen atleast two - more likely three ;)


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#19 NihontoCollector

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 06:12 PM

Does anybody have an Oshigata for Banshu ju Mitsusuke saku and is willing to compare it?

 

Because either I have a Gimei Wakizashi sitting next to me ... or a late Kamakura to early Nambokuchi Wakizashi. The odds of someone faking a pretty unimportant guy are not the best out there ....

 

Speaking of chances: If Jean had never seen a Nambokucho Wakizashi I still would not dare to rule out that there are none, eventhoughe it would then be probably less likely ... I do not believe in Aliens but just because I have not seen one does not necessarily mean they do not exist.

 

While there are few pre (Ubu) Muromachi Wakizashi blades there definately are some ... and yes, there are even Kamakura periode Wakizashi - unless you can prove the above Mei to be blant Gimei I can not even rule out that you have just seen an example of a Kamakura periode Wakizashi on the NMB now ;)

 

If you can then go here:

 

https://books.google...kizashi&f=false

 

Hence one shouldn't put an old looking Wakizashi per se as Sue Muromachi just because there are way more Sue Koto Wakizashi than Nambokucho. If you want to go by mere numbers Muromachi is probably always your best bet because during this periode just about the largest amount of swords had been forged as there was a big demand. On the other hand you will find very few Katana blades from Meiji or Taisho and again a growing amount from Showa Peridoe due to WWII. So take 10 random blades and call them all Muromachi without looking at them and you probably have the best best - when plain guessing by periode only ...

 

 

Of course, it is sue Muromachi, fyi Luis, except for one exception shown on the board, i have never seen a wakizashi forged in Nambokucho, and the one shown was late Nambokucho. Furthermore sugata (shobu zukuri) and nakago show sue Muromachi trade mark.

Luis, when Nambokucho, think to tachi, o suriage Tachi, katana, ko dashi, sunobi tanto ... but avoid thinking wakizashi, please :)

 

FYI Jean, of course you will want to avoid not thinking wakizashi when Nambokucho, please :)

 

 

But back to this sword. I would like to thank all who have shared their oppinion so far. Once I have the blade I will try to get some better images of the Mei, some measurements and also show the Hamon and Hada. Maybe we can then make a better judgement.

 

Please don't get me wrong: I am most happy to learn that this blade is for example either Gimei, by an unimportant guy or very late Muromachi just as I am happy to learn it is the opposite. I am gratefull for any help that will make it easier for me to decide on getting it polished or not. By now we can all agree it is a Wakizashi from Koto periode.

 

Thanks again

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#20 Jean

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:01 PM

Luis,

In fact, we are both right.

Kanteisho had to establish a size limit for tanto/wakizashi/katana-Tachi. That is what is called a convenient modern way to categorize swords. For facility, the unit chosen is the shaku.

As an example: a O suriage tachi over 2 shaku is named a katana. If it is widely shortened between 1 or 2 shaku, it will be named a wakizashi but in fact it remains a very shortened tachi.

The shortening period of these swords was in Muromachi when Katana appears due to the change of warfare, cavalry disappearing in favour of foot soldiers.

Nevertheless, blades were and are still named by their utilization.

The two examples you posted are considered as Otanto or sunobi tanto. Just read the length of the example you posted.

What you call wakizashi in Kamakura period are called in litterature Kodachi. Wakizashi name is nowadays coupled with katana and is widely accepted in this sense.

So far, I have only seen one example of ubu shinogi zukuri wakizashi dated Nambokucho. (Search the site there were several topics about wakizashi, Nambokucho...)

In Nambokucho, the companion sword of the tachi was the tanto or O tanto known as Odambira and not the wakizashi.

Of course, we are only talking of ubu swords.


So according to its length your sword maybe Nambokucho or late Muromachi but as you did not post the measurements, it is difficult to assess. But shobu zukuri is rather a Muromachi pattern than a Nambokucho one.

Yasuri me existing or not cannot be used in the dating of a sword as nobody knows its "life".

Now take the Nihonto litterature and try to find were in Kamakura or Nambokucho there are references to wakizashi.

https://en.m.wikiped.../wiki/Wakizashi
https://en.m.wikiped...rg/wiki/Kodachi
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#21 NihontoCollector

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:35 PM

Hello Jean, I agree. When we are speaking alternative facts you sure are right, too.

 

Otherwise I prefer to think I am right and you just have posted a claim by saying "Wakizahi of course has [per se] to be Sue Koto" that you can not really keep up based on evidence / facts.

 

30cm + ... Wakizashi. End of line. Anything else here is rabulistic wording.

 

But that's fine with me. No hard feeling my friend.

 

So now let's get back on topic.


Luis


#22 NihontoCollector

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:41 PM

PS

 

Yasuri me existing or not cannot be used in the dating of a sword as nobody knows its "life".

 

So in other words you say that if you have an Ubu Nagako with existing very visible, crisp Yasuri Mei this is not to be considered when dating the sword - while hardly visible ones are neither. I would want to think of that as an interesting and unique approach.


Luis


#23 Jim P

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:26 PM

Hi Luis, Jean and Ray gave you a best guess based on the few photos you provided us of an out of polish blade with a high probability that it’s not the Masamune and gimei but still has a chance it’s one of the other masamune as there are a lot of them in the Sue Muromach eg, Echizen signed with 2 kanji as did a few others  but you seem to not be happy with the comments from one of the most senior members and prefer to take the speculative long shot that it came from the Nambokucho so not much more we can add ? also, Jean did not say not to consider the yasuri mei just that it is not a good indicator as we don’t know if it was left in a shed for hundreds of years to rust or loved and taken care of.It does not mater if its crisp or not its the type of yasuri mei that's important.  When you get it, take a pic with the habaki off and looking down on the mune so we can see if it’s had a few polishes or not ? and a pic of the hamachi would help also what was the description from the seller ? :)


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#24 NihontoCollector

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:51 PM

Hello Jim,

 

there seems to be a misunderstanding: This blade may well be Muromachi periode! NO argument on that! As I said I was looking for oppinions on the Mei based on the images I got by the seller who is unfamiliar with Nihonto. I got oppinions and I appreciate them for the most part no matter whetere they are positive or negative. I am after getting oppinions that will help me a decision based on facs. if this is signed Masamune is is by fact either Gimie or by an unimportnat smith so the blade is not worthy of polishing. Those are very appreciated facts as they will help me not to waste money and that is a good thing.

 

 


Luis


#25 Jim P

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 07:03 PM

Hi Luis, I also thought waklizashi came later, I also remember reading  Otanto or sunobi tanto were the companions to tachi or a Kodach as a indoor sword in the Nambokucho the problem is there is some who call them waklizashi both are right but for me and a lot of others Jeans explanation is how I would have explained it If I remember correctly the word Waklizashi came in to use after Nambokucho?

Luis,you will find facts can be hard to pin down in the nihonto world. It is very easy to form a negative on the net and we all misinterpret from time to time when we don't know how that person expresses their thoughts. I can tell you Jeans only motive was to try and help so I think you have misinterpreted how the info was presented. I think you will have to send it to someone who can see it in hand as it stands  you still may have a sword worth polishing :)  


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#26 Stephen

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 07:14 PM

only a window would make it worth all the print on this so far


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#27 Jim P

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 07:18 PM

:thumbsup: 


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