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Pawn Shop Nihonto Purchase (Hamon)


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#1 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 09:14 PM

Hello NMB members,

This is a sword I recently purchased from an local area pawn shop. The blade is obviously in fairly poor condition, however, the hamon is still reasonably
visible. I'm having trouble with determining which style best describes the hamon pattern. Gunome, Notare, Toran, combination of all three??? Would definitely appreciate further opinions...

The sword has unfortunately too out of polish to determine any activites, although, there does seem to be a bit of Itame/Mokume grain visible.

Thanks in advance,

Dave
20170806_113855.jpg 20170804_085612.jpg 20170806_100020.jpg

#2 Fuuten

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:04 PM

I'm not too sure about the hamon. Better pictures might help.


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#3 hxv

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:18 PM

Is the hamon etched on the sword, or is it the real deal? If it is the real deal, as clear and bright as it is on a sword of this condition, then it's very promising. As Axel said, better closeup, focused pics of hamon, nakago, and a shot of the whole sword would help greatly.

Hoanh
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#4 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:35 PM

My apologies about poor photos,the sword was pretty much a rescue purchase. Out of polish,modified, etc...

Basically, was hoping there would be enough hamon visible to render an opinion as to style.

Additional photos added, but their not a great improvement beyond the previous...20170806_095908.jpg 20170804_085428.jpg 20170806_100116 (1).jpg

Again Thanks,

Dave

#5 Stephen

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:44 PM

nakago?


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#6 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:14 PM

Thx Axel and Hoanh for your responses,

As mentioned, I simply couldn't bare seeing this sword laying in a pawn shop display case.

I'm most certainly not qualified to make a judgement as to true nihonto. Fortunately to individuals such as you, and the NMB.

I am confident the sword is true nihonto. Even though the hamon appears acid etched it is true hamon and frankly, it also appears to be a fairly well forged blade. No flaws that I can see, hagire, fukure, a well made blade.

The bad news...The nakago has been cut and ground, the habaki, unbelievably was soldered to the blade...soldered!

A real tragedy, I will post pictures if requested, however reluctantly.

Thanks,

Dave

#7 Dave R

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:17 PM

 Soldered, or cast on. Some wartime blades seem to have had the habaki cast "in situ" in a white metal. An area worth more investigation.


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Dave


#8 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:18 PM


Stephen,

You would be horrified, even an old Marine like you...

Dave
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#9 Stephen

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:21 PM

Not always solder some in a white clay type substance. 

 

lay odds ive seen worse


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#10 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:35 PM



Stephen,

I lay odds you have also...

Nakago, habaki photos forthcoming.

Dave
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#11 Jean

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:55 PM

Gunome midare
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Jean L.
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#12 dwmc

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:59 PM



Thank You Jean !!

Dave

#13 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 12:32 AM

Ok gentlemen, I assure you, I was as horrified as you when I removed a Deer horn handle from the nakago. I was hoping the well meaning good old boy had left the original nakago intact. Oh no, it of course needed modification.

Don't get me wrong, the individual was most likely well meaning, and was simply unaware of what he was doing...

But heck, from the habaki onward, it still has the faded appearance of a once well made blade. I'll certainly keep this sword, and study still what it has left to offer..

Thanks always,

Dave20170806_154144.jpg 20170806_153950.jpg 20170806_153846.jpg

#14 Stephen

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:02 AM

I think its a keeper, and after seen in hand worth a polish?, what to do with the other end?, make it history!

Have a trained togi remover the homemade habaki Osurage it, given a new nakago, money that would never be recouped but its saving grace. 

JMHO


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Stephen C.
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#15 Jean

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:22 AM

I would keep it as it is and display it as a reminder of what stupidity is....
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#16 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:36 AM

Thanks Stephen,

I'm stunned, I only briefly entertained the option of nakago replacement, but now that you mentioned it, I may very well do just what you suggest.

Dave
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#17 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:42 AM



That's a definite option also Jean. Maybe more to be learned from as it presently is.

Dave

#18 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:40 AM

Stephen,

Ted Tenold is only a few hours away and the osurage option is quite tempting. I spoke with him briefly regarding another sword a couple of years ago at the San Francisco sword show.

Even though Jean is right, leave it as is, and replacing the nakago by osurage may be glaring example of my own stupidity. I would still love to see the sword in polish, all be it Osurage.

Thank you again Gentlemen,

I'll keep the sword posted in the future should Mr.Tenold agree to take on project.

Dave

#19 Stephen

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:11 AM

Ted will take you on the right path.

edit to ad. 

I could give analogy for wrecked Ferrari

 

 [pic of broken F548 not allowed]

 

or one where a horse needing to be put down.

7381228-3x2-340x227.jpg

 

how many blades have we seen where it was obvious that it was from a much longer blade broken in battle or what not?

 

ONCE Ted has it in hand he will be able to to tell if its worth the front finder fixed or if its RIP. 


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Stephen C.
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#20 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:41 AM



I'm sure he will be the right person to talk to.


Geez, just noticed I misspelled O-suriage not once but four times,,

Old age I guess,

Looking forward to contacting Ted.

Dave

#21 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:51 AM

Many, many Suriage...

 

Dave



#22 Stephen

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:55 AM

Never go by my fat thumb spelling...lol
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#23 dwmc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:39 PM

Well, I can't say my third grade teacher didn't warn me that copying other peoples work would eventually catch up to me....lol


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#24 Darcy

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:40 AM

That thing can be removed. 

 

Whatever heat was required to solder it either did or didn't damage the blade. That ship sailed. The equivalent heat to remove it will not make a difference. 

 

Or a chisel.

 

That said, the nakago is a pure horror show.

 

The mihaba of the blade increases just before the "habaki" which is weird "at best" for a suriage sword. So I don't think it's suriage, or normal. I think it is not legit, or if legit, one of the cheap tsunagi type of manufactured things that end up in export koshirae. Without seeing it in hand, I really don't know, but I don't see anything in the photos that would lead me to a hopeful feeling.

 

I also don't see any hamon, I see two colors of steel similar to reproduction blades that have reproduction hamon on them. Not sure what is causing the positive evaluations. 


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#25 SAS

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:24 PM

Because hope springs eternal? it doesn't create much hope in me from the photos.


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#26 Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 06:19 PM

Any news about the blade's yokote ? Must be on holyday... ;-)


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#27 dwmc

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 02:25 AM

Darcy, SAS, and Carlo,

Please accept my apology for slow response.

Darcy, I agree fully with your assessment. Unfortunately, as you can see from the photos, this sword has seen an incredible amount of age and abuse. There are no pictures I can take that will present the sword in any better light than simply as is in it's present condition. The sword is difficult to make heads or tale from. It most certainly appears to be an acid etched something or another sword. I do however, as previously mentioned, thanks to folks such as yourselves and the NMB am extremely confident this sword is true nihonto. The Hamon? which which appears in the pictures I think is true hamon possibly enhanced by some means or another. The mihaba question may have been caused by the sword also looking as though it was sent through a mechanical sharpener a time or two.
I will still most likely ask Ted Tarnold to take a look in the near future and will post his opinion..

SAS, No, there's really not much hope, and honestly, not looking for much.

Carlos, No Yokote visible...Shinogi worn and rounded.

Thank you Gentlemen...

It might be interesting to see what Mr. Tarnold has to say with blade in hand. (After the initial horror of course.)

Dave

#28 Vermithrax16

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 02:31 AM

Confused. Any huge suriage or polish or what ever is going to be wildy expensive. Is this a classic or something?


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Jeremiah L.

 

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#29 Stephen

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:32 AM

NOBODY Knows until seen in hand...geeeesh
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#30 dwmc

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:54 AM

Jerimiah,

No, Nothing really wildly expensive as of yet. I just found the sword in a local pawn shop with an elk antler handle attached and recognized the blade as possible nihonto. Of course noticed the prominent hamon also. Purchased it, removed the antler handle and found the nakago severaly altered. Thought I would inquire about the hamon style and show the members what someone is capable of doing when left to their own devices...

Anyway, the photos are obviously terrible, I do however believe the sword is Shinto era Nihonto looking at it in hand. Whats left of the butcherd nakago show a gret deal of age and also some faint sujikai yasurime.20170813_190519 (1).jpg


Thanks,Dave




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