Jump to content


Photo

Identification Blacksmith.


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 11:47 AM

Hello everyone.

I own this military saber.

You can help me in the translation and history of this Japanese blacksmith.

Thank you all.

 

 

110.jpg
210.jpg
310.jpg
510.jpg
1010.jpg
1110.jpg
1210.jpg
610.jpg
710.jpg


Jos.C


#2 SteveM

SteveM

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationTokyo, Japan

Posted 29 July 2017 - 12:25 PM

井神貞弘 Igami Sadahiro  

 

The one problem you are stuck with is that there is no known smith with this exact name, however there is a tantalizingly close Igami Shirō (伊神四郎), who used the name 貞弘 Sadahiro

Based on the lack of any evidence of another swordsmith with this name, and the unusually similar last names combined with Sadahiro,

I think its safe to assume that 伊神四郎 is your man, and for some reason he used an alternative spelling on this sword. 


Steve M

#3 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 01:32 PM

Thank you for your help.

Why would the blacksmith have used another kanji?


Jos.C


#4 SteveM

SteveM

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationTokyo, Japan

Posted 29 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

Perhaps it (井) was a kanji character that was used in the name of a mentor or a smith who tutored Igami, and so he adopted it as an homage. Perhaps there was another reason. Also, it is entirely possible that I could be mistaken, and that this is just a forgery or an unknown smith. However the idea that someone would be motivated to forge this particular smith, with this unusual spelling, on a WW2 sword seems far-fetched to me. And the engraving does look very characteristic of the chippy WW2 engravings, so despite having a nagging question-mark surrounding that particular kanji, it does look authentic. 


  • Stephen likes this
Steve M

#5 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 07:11 PM

Thanks a lot for your help.

There is no complete list with all blacksmiths? (Known and unknown)

This sword is very interesting.


Jos.C


#6 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 07:36 PM

I found in this book the Kanji corresponding to the word.

 

112.jpg
51zwp211.jpg

 

https://www.amazon.f...words=nippon to


Jos.C


#7 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 11,630 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 29 July 2017 - 07:45 PM

Thanks a lot for your help.

There is no complete list with all blacksmiths? (Known and unknown)

This sword is very interesting.

http://www.lulu.com/...t-22166224.html


  • SteveM likes this

- Admin -


#8 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 08:30 PM

Thank you very much.

In the book I found this blacksmith.

One finds the kanji in its true name and the corresponding period.

What do you think?

 

image210.jpg


Jos.C


#9 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 29 July 2017 - 10:56 PM

Here is the information about sadahiro.

There were several blacksmiths with the name sadahiro.

A link with the Kanji of my saber?

I think the solution is there, but difficult to understand. I do not speak English well.

 

image310.jpg


Jos.C


#10 SteveM

SteveM

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 792 posts
  • LocationTokyo, Japan

Posted 30 July 2017 - 01:50 AM

Hello Lokomilo (I should point out that one of the rules of this forum is to sign with a real first and/or last name),

 

The smith in your post number 8 provides an important clue. 

 

The father, whose birth name was apparently Takai Sadajirō (高次郎) , used the art name Sadatsugu (継), keeping one kanji from his real name and using it in his art name. The son continued the tradition of using that same character in his own art name - Sadahiro (弘). So both father and son used "Sada" in their art names.  

 

Again, for some reason which we will probably never know, the son also signed as Igami Sadahiro (伊神貞弘) . We don't know why exactly he decided to adopt a new family name for his art name, however this is not unusual in the Japanese world of arts. Also note that it is not unusual for an art name to undergo several changes throughout the artist's life. In the case of your sword, Sadahiro has fused part of his real family name () with part of his adopted name of Igami (伊神→神). Note that both 伊 and 井 are pronounced the same. Maybe he used 井 as an homage to the real family name, or in further homage to his father, or maybe he was just trying out a different style of art name to see if he liked it. Whatever the reason, I think you can be 100% confident that your signature belongs to the artist born as Takai Shirō, and who is known by the art name of Sadahiro. 

 

Hopefully this makes it a bit more clear. And, apologies if I accidentally made it more confusing. 


  • Bazza likes this
Steve M

#11 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:27 AM

Yes, I think so too.

Markus Sesko also wrote to me on this sword. Here is his message:

 

"The signature reads " Igami Sadahiro" (井神貞弘). That said, the maker seems to be a "little mystery". For example, he signed his name also with the characters (伊神) for "Igami"  and I think that it might be the Gifu/Seki-based smith that I have listed in my book which bore the real name Takai Shirō (高井四郎). As his father Sadatsugu bore the family name Takai too, I think that Sadahiro might have change his family name to Igami at a certain point in time which he then wrote in two different ways. But maybe Igami was just a pseudonym. Unfortunately, not much information is known on this smith so maybe we will never know.

 
Maybe you have heard about my Gendaito Project. I am going to create a free website will all information on Gendaito smiths available. Would you give me the permission to use your pictures for the website later? In this case, I can update information if anything is found in the future.
 
Best regards,
Markus"

Jos.C


#12 ROKUJURO

ROKUJURO

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • LocationIn a deep valley

Posted 30 July 2017 - 12:52 PM

Markus,

are there any stamps on the NAKAGO? (photos always tip up! No HABAKI!) They could help to identify the blade as SHOWA-TO or GENDAI-TO. 


Regards,

Jean C.

#13 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 01:26 PM

Hello,

No stamp on this sword. Just the signature of the blacksmith.


Jos.C


#14 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 05:49 PM

The habaki is really blocked, impossible to remove. I leave it as it is.


Jos.C


#15 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 06:21 PM

Here are better photos of the blade. No stamp, nothing visible.

 

dscf9011.jpg
dscf9010.jpg
dscf9012.jpg


Jos.C


#16 ROKUJURO

ROKUJURO

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • LocationIn a deep valley

Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:00 PM

Maybe I should have said it using Japanese terms: If you post photos, please show them tip (= KISSAKI) up!

The HABAKI should come off with a little, but not too much force. You can read about methods here in the forums as the problem is not especially new. In most cases, crud or corrosion lead to a blocked HABAKI, so it is important to remove it to clean underneath (carefully and not with metallic tools).

Please sign all posts at least with your first name plus an initial so we may address you politely. It is a rule here. It is easy to mark it in your profile so it comes up automatically with each post. 


Regards,

Jean C.

#17 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:11 PM

Thank you for your message.

The hakabi resists, I tried the natural methods (water, soap, oil for saber), to the strength of my hands. I do not use violent methods. I prefer to leave it as it is.


Jos.C


#18 ROKUJURO

ROKUJURO

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • LocationIn a deep valley

Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:17 PM

Jos.

I have a problem with your name. Once you have signed 'Markus', now it is 'Jos.'. Why don't you just adapt the way everybody does it here on board? Give us a full first name to address you, that is all - it won't hurt!

The stuck HABAKI (not hakabi) should be removed, the more as you have tried water and soap. Did you really try hot water on the HABAKI? It won't damage the blade if you dry it immediated after the treatment. Did you try WD 40, a bad smelling but efficient lubricant?

You can also try with wooden tools, and in my experience this works best. Keep safe at all times using self-adhesive tape to mask the cutting edge and to protect your fingers.

With a chance of the blade being a GENDAI-TO, it is worth the effort!

Good luck!  


Regards,

Jean C.

#19 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:38 PM

Markus is the person who helped me translate the blacksmith of the blade. His name is Markus Sesko the author of the book on Japanese blacksmiths.

I copied and pasted the message he had sent me for my sword.

My name is Jos.

I also tried the WD 40 slightly on the habaki and the hot water without success. Habaki has not had to be kidnapped since the war.

We also think of a gendai blade.

The blacksmith will be Takai Shiro son of Sadatsugu. He would have put another Kanji on this sword having the same meaning as the other signatures of the same blacksmith. (Ikami Sadahiro = Igami Sadahiro) This is the same person.


Jos.C


#20 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 9,493 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:32 PM

water under the habaki if left will rust the blade!


                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#21 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 31 July 2017 - 10:24 AM

I had the blade dry. No problem. Even without removing the Habaki.


Jos.C


#22 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 11,630 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 31 July 2017 - 04:05 PM

Has no-one commented on the fact that the nakago has been filed and altered? Why?


- Admin -


#23 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 9,493 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

What you get for not paying attention i see a mei removed...some photo shop may bring it out!!-

                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#24 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 9,493 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:29 PM

other side filed ....maybe a neg image will bring out a mei or im just reading into the file marks?

Attached Thumbnails

  • filednakago.jpg

                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#25 leo

leo

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 301 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:45 PM

The nakago really looks reworked in places. The blade itself looks machine-made. Not too many good pictures of the blade, but it looks like the typical oil hardened suguha to me with no hada and this fine nioi line .
I am really surprised there is no stamp. What I like are the bold characters of the mei which look much better than the usual signature on machine blades.

 

The habaki, by the way could easily be removed with a piece of wood and a hammer without doing damage to the blade.

 

Best, Martin


Martin S.

#26 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:19 PM

The sword probably had another mount before it. That's why the nakago has two holes.

There are no other mei on the painting side. Just the signature of the blacksmith on one side of the nakago.


Jos.C


#27 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:30 AM

Here are all the photos on this sword.

 

dscf9021.jpg
dscf9013.jpg
dscf9017.jpg
dscf9014.jpg
dscf9015.jpg
dscf9019.jpg
dscf9020.jpg
dscf9018.jpg

 


Jos.C


#28 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:30 AM

More:

 

dscf9016.jpg
dscf9022.jpg
dscf9027.jpg
dscf9023.jpg
dscf9025.jpg
dscf9026.jpg
dscf9024.jpg
dscf9029.jpg
dscf9028.jpg


Jos.C


#29 ROKUJURO

ROKUJURO

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • LocationIn a deep valley

Posted 01 August 2017 - 01:30 PM

Family name on KASHIRA may read NAKAMOTO.


Regards,

Jean C.

#30 lokomilo

lokomilo

    Chu Saku

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • LocationEurope

Posted 01 August 2017 - 01:31 PM

:thumbsup: thank you


Jos.C





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq