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Help! - Novice Requests Help With Tang Translation On Offer


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#1 zook

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:07 AM

tangSig.JPG tang2.JPG IMG_6352.JPG IMG_6353.JPG IMG_6354.JPG Blade.JPG

Hi Guys -  

I am pretty new here and have been learning a lot, but I have a ways to go.   I have been recently offered a katana by a long distance acquaintance.  He is a militaria dealer/collector, but his specialty is NOT nihonto, nor kitanas from WW2.  He collects them on the side.   So, he offered me this shin-gunto and claims that the blade is old ... possibly 1600s.  He is an honest person,  but of course that doesn't mean his assessment is correct.     He emailed me several photos.    I am struggling with the translation.  I am thinking it may be Sukenao,  but that's all I can figure out from the attached pictures ...and I believe there were at LEAST two smiths by that name (at least) - -  AND again, I am not sure I am correct on what I "think" I figured out on my own :)     So, I am asking for help ... opinions on if this sword is legitimate, and what period it was crafted?  

 

I greatly appreciate any comments, wisdom, advice and guidance on this matter!   Thank you,  

 

Dan S.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Dan

#2 raymondsinger

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:11 AM

Omi (no) Kami Sukenao

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#3 zook

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:11 AM

post-script:   I apologize I left off this clarification;  I AM A COLLECTOR ... not a dealer or commercial entity.  I am a long time collector of Orders and medals who decided to dive into this new adventure as part of a new, potential passion.   I thought this sword was attractive ... I like the leather saya,  but ... as stated above, I have a lot to learn.  I am still reading my new references :)  


Dan

#4 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:13 AM

is there a date side?


                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

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#5 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:15 AM

http://www.sho-shin.com/sukenao.htm


                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#6 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:49 AM

SUKENAO (助直), Genroku (元禄, 1688-1704), Settsu – “Ōmi no Kuni-jū Sukenao” (近江国住助直), “Ōmi no Kami Takagi-jū Sukenao” (近江守高木住助直), “Ōmi no Kami Sukenao” (近江守助直), “Tsuda Ōmi no Kami Sukenao – Gōshū Takagi” (津田近江守助直・江州高木), real name Tsuda Magodayū (津田孫太夫), he was born in the 16th year of Kan´ei (寛永, 1639) in the village of Takagi (高木) in Ōmi´s Yasu district (野洲郡), he became a student of the 2nd gen. Sukehiro (助広) and was married to his daughter in the third year of Enpō (延宝, 1675), we know date signatures from the eighth year of Kanbun (寛文, 1668) to the sixth year of Genroku (1693), it is unknown when he received the honorary title Ōmi no Kami, the earliest dated blades showing this title in the mei is from the eighth month of Kanbun ten (1670), it is said that he died around the sixth or seventh year of Genroku (1693~94), first and foremost shinogi-zukuri katana and wakizashi are extant, dense ko-itame with ji-nie, also a standing-out itame, suguha, notare, tōranba, notare mixed with gunome, or gunome-midare, in the case of a midareba an Ōsaka-yakidashi is present, nie-deki with a wide, clear and bright nioiguchi, but we also know blades with a tight nioiguchi, the gunome is somewhat more angular as at Sukehiro, at Sukenao, the tama are – if present – not always in the exact middle of two midare elements, the bōshi has an early returning ko-maru-kaeri, from the eighth year of Kanbun (1668) he signed the omote-mei in block script and the ura-mei in cursive script, from the second year of Tenna (天和, 1682) he signed both sides in cursive script, and from the third year of Enpō (1675) onwards he added his family name Tsuda, certain outstanding masterworks of him are of the same quality as the best works of his master and father-in-law Sukehiro, jōjō-saku


                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#7 zook

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:59 AM

Raymond/Stephen - thanks for your quick replies! .... the signature provided via Stephen's link looks a bit different that I provided in the photo.  Is that a cause for pause/alarm?   

 

Stephen -  I don't think there was a date - but I have sent an inquiry back to make sure.   

 

Thank you -  Dan 


Dan

#8 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 02:03 AM

id be concerned if no date, if you read the copy an paste i did ,,,he did sign diff ways, ill leave it to others to make a gimei call.  


                                  Stephen C.

                      USMC      DEC 63      APR 73

              "Nothing Fxcks you harder than time"

                        Sir  Davos Seaworth


#9 Vermithrax16

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 02:16 AM

id be concerned if no date, if you read the copy an paste i did ,,,he did sign diff ways, ill leave it to others to make a gimei call.  

From my references I can't really find a signature match but the books don't cover every sword ever made by a smith. Agree with Stephen, leaving it to others. 


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#10 Doug

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:01 AM

Id say gimei but it doesnt really appear to me to be trying to be THE Sukenao aside from some slight flourish in the suke which i feel is rather artfully handled. Blade and nakago look newer to my eyes Is there any known gendaito smiths by this name?

Doug

#11 Toryu

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:33 AM

Can we see photos of the end of the nakago?

-t


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#12 zook

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 09:29 PM

Hi all - thanks for the feedback and opinions!  ... I really appreciate it.  
Toryu -  I have requested the additional photos of the nakago.  The owner is on travel, but said he would send me the additional photos on Monday.   I will certainly share what I get as an update.    

 

As it stands,  I don't have a confident feeling.  

 

Dan 


Dan

#13 Geraint

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 11:18 PM

Dear Dan,

 

Don't lose heart altogether, just because it might be gimei that doesn't mean the sword is worthless, just not worth buying as a genuine Sukenao.  It is still a genuine Japanese sword in nice looking gunto koshirae so it has a worth and is collectible.   There is always the possibility of having the mei professionally removed and the sword polished and papered though I think most would simply keep it as is.  

 

All the best.


Geraint




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