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Franken Sword....


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#1 Brando

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 11:43 PM

Hello everybody! Im new here and would like to say hello! I used to be a member over at SFI but the Nihonto sub seems to have gone stale. I just recently acquired a wakazashi and was hoping for a little help identifying it or maybe getting an round about age hypotheses. I posted a few pictures on another forum  and a very helpful and knowledgeable gentleman told me that the tsuba read "Kaneshige" and that more than likely the sword was from Shinto period. The sword appears to have been put together with strange parts. The tsuka seems to be made from Ceder and scraps of old same, f&k set seem to have that Chinese Ebay feel to them. The seppa dont match, the habaki, tsuba and blade all appear to be Japanese. I have quite the mess going on here. So for your veiwing pleasure or....daily chuckle I present ....Franken-sword.

 

From tip to end it measures 26.5 inches

Frome tip of kissaki to munemachi is 21 inches

nakago from hamach to nakagojiri is just under 5.5 inches

from mitsukado to fukura is 3.5 centimeters

 

  



#2 Brando

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 11:45 PM

ok, cant post any pics for some reason...drag and drop doesn't work and photobucket url either..



#3 Brando

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 11:57 PM

lets try this..

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#4 Brando

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:02 AM

Tsuba..

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#5 Stephen

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:04 AM

you can post all pix on one entry......?


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#6 Brando

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:12 AM

Here are some more,..thank you for your patience. 

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#7 Brando

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:15 AM

Ive seen people wrap there boat oar handles like this....haha..



#8 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 12:45 AM

Looks like a navy guy - likely boatswain's mate got a hold of it. When they're underway, they'll cover any damn thing sitting still long enough, in knots and braids.
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#9 Brando

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 02:59 AM

Yes it is very strange, Im trying to upload other pictures and organize the previous ones but Im not having much luck..



#10 Brando

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 09:29 AM

Thank you for responding SwordGuyJoe! If any further pics will help let me know.



#11 Brando

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 12:51 AM

Is it such a piece of junk nobody wants to comment?.... or is it an enigma?

I was hoping someone could confirm the era of the sword and tsuba. Even if its just a guess...I know nothing at all about it.



#12 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:04 AM

Really? i dont see how we can tell much about it from pix posted. 

A shinto wakizashi in neglected condition in mid to lower end fittings?

you could have it polished and sent to shinsa to know all there is to know about it.

That money spent might be recouped by a third if sold.

hows that?


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#13 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:37 AM

 

Is it such a piece of junk nobody wants to comment?

No, it's not junk, but it's far from being in good-enough shape to say it's a collectible. The blade hasn't been taken care of, & the deep gouges caused by the rust COULD be removed by a polisher, but it's simplky not worth the investment. At about $100/inch to polish, you'll have a huge bill, but no way to recoup it when you eventually sell it. When Stephen says it's Shinto, he actually answered your question about era, but you have to look it up so you'll learn something. The tsuba looks to be about the same age, mid-Shinto. The poor condition of the blade makes it impossible to identify much more than that.

 

So enjoy the blade for what it is, & buy some books to study so you won't get stuck with the same type of mess the next time you're ready to buy.

 

Ken

 


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#14 Brando

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:49 AM

Thank you Ken-Hawaii! I realize that one individual identified it as Shinto but I was just fishing for other opinions. I will read more about it, Ive been doing so off and on for about 11 years now. I know enough not to pay for this, but I would find it hard not to pay something for it just to rescue it. Thankfully I dont have any money invested because I literally pulled it out of a waste bin.

What do people do with swords like these anyway?

Thanks again!  



#15 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:36 AM

You know enough about the sword to look for info on this forum, so you know that it's Japanese. From the overall shape of the blade (sugata), we can tell the time period that it was made. Telling much of anything else requires the blade to be in better condition, & that's not worth doing. So, as I already suggested, you can keep the blade as it is, knowing you have an older Japanese sword, you can sell or trade it to someone else, or you can toss it back in that waste bin.

 

There is a small amount of value attached to the wakizashi, even in its poor shape, just not enough to make it suitable for refurbishing. This forum is dedicated to preserving that value, so options 1 or 2 apply. My personal suggestion is to go find some uchiko (you can look that up), oil the blade real well while you're waiting, & then uchiko the heck out of your blade. It's cheap, it will remove some of the rust, it won't hurt the blade in its current condition, & it might give you enough details of the hamon & jihada to help you make an informed decision on whether you want to invest any more money.

 

Good luck & have fun!

 

Ken

 


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#16 Brando

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 04:07 AM

Thanks for the info Ken, I think Ill go ahead and throw it in the waist bin along with the few books Ive acquired about them thus far.

And thanks for reminding me about the arrogant and supercilious (you can look that up), attitude that seems to chase away any newcomer seeking information and education of nihonto.

Cheers!   



#17 Toryu

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 05:18 AM

Brando

Please dont toss it away, and please dont give up on this forum. There is signs of good activity in your blade, and a good cleaning with uchiko could bring more of that out. The shape of the blade and the condition of the nakago suggest shinto. The takanoha yasuri suggests Mino/Seki. Not much more can be said that hasnt already been mentioned. I will say for some, even though its a loss, they might get it polished just to preserve it. Of course only a trained polisher can tell you if it can be restored.

-t


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#18 SAS

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 05:45 AM

Just can't help some folks......you try, and get a poke in the eye for your trouble....least that seems to be the way these days......


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#19 J Reid

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:39 AM

I think if you found it in a waste bin you did a really good thing by pulling it out. If it was me who found it I would clean it up best I could, remove any active red rust, oil it, and display the blade as is. To be honest.. I'm a little jealous! ;)

The fittings aren't much but the blade has its merits. From what I can see it looks like an Echizen blade. Don't let bad vibes get you down. There are many other collectors out there who don't appreciate the attitude that some of the elite boast when they see a blade that has had a hard life. Each and every one should be respected for what it is. Once upon a time.. someone cared about this sword.

Keep studying and push forward!
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#20 Brando

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 08:10 AM

Thank you Mr. Reid, I will keep pushing forward. I would never really throw it away. ....and yes, what a score indeed! You said it best that at one time...someone cared about this sword!...now I do.

Now that I know its not a lost treasure  :)  ...I think Ill feel more comfortable cleaning it and getting rid of some of the rust. And the rust isnt that bad at all...the pictures make it seem so much worse off than it really is. I look forward to hanging out here with you guys if you'll let me. I have so much to learn. Im searching for the meaning of about half the terminology I hear...My introduction was a little harsh and for that I apologize. Im a really easy goin guy if you get to know me a bit. I will keep you informed of the progress of this trash bin beauty... 



#21 Geraint

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 09:33 AM

Dear Brando.

 

When you say, "clean it up", please don't do anything other than uchiko however tempted you are!

 

There are threads about cleaning blades which I am sure you can find via the search function.

 

If you hang around ere a bit more you will discover a deep, deep aversion to anything else on everyone's part because blades really do get ruined by other means.

As I mentioned in a recent thread the learning that we all go through struggling to match Japanese terms with what we see is much easier if you have a blade in hand.  

 

All the best. 


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#22 Brando

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:49 PM

Thank you Geraint, all Ive done so far is just add oil. The more I put on, the more rust comes off. It seems to be never ending...Oil....let sit.....wipe more rust off...repeat.

I thought about carefully taking a pencil eraser to the deeper rust spots.... but then I figured that if any rust did come off, Id end up dragging the rust particles over the rest of the blade possibly scratching it. 

The oil is doing very well for now, so Ill just give it time.....the saya was full of sand so Im sure that didnt help much. The activity in the blade is getting easier to see....very promising. Looks like a beautiful horizon with the occasional puffy cloud peeking up over... 

 

#23 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 02:10 PM

Id try the uchiko route as well, you'll really be surprised what comes out, try Bob Benson's home made ..very good quality. 

 

his site 

large

http://www.bushidoja...hiko_Ball_.html

small

http://www.bushidoja..._choji_oil.html

 

 

PS id leave it out of the sandy saya, wrapped in a oiled ol T would be fine


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#24 Jesper

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:30 PM

Hi Brando,

Please be gentle with the ushiko and do not apply too much pressure on the blade when using it. Remember that everything you put on a blade will have a lager or smaller abrasive effect. It is always better to under clean than over clean. Any attemt to do anything more than applying ushiko may make the condition worse. Please not not use ushiko on the Nakago (tang). The rust/patina should be left alone. You can use a piece of bone or hardwood to gently  remove some chunks of loose rust and give the Nakago a light coat of oil. The Nakago is an important, but often neclected part of the sword and may tell you a lot. You sword for example seems to have Takanoha (hawk-feather) filemarks, wich can be seen on swords from the Yamato province and related schools, according to Nakayama´s "The Connesseur,s Book of Japanese Swords". I cannot from the picture se how well they are executed. If a Nakago is very well executed it is a good chance that the blade is well made, too.

 

I think we all can agree on that your sword most likely isn´t a national treasure. However, it is still a genuine sword and antique which deserves respect, and the blade seem to have some nice activities in it.  Most collectors have started by buying swords in not perfect condition and then gone on to accuire better and better blades within their financial range. If you want to learn and educated yourself this forum is a fantastic resource to do so. But you also need to buy books to see good blades and learn at least the basic terminology used in the word of NihonTo. You also need to look at as many top-quality blades in good polish you can in museums, sword shows and in private collections. There are nowadays very good photoes in books and on the Internet, but the best is still to see and handle good blades yourself and have the details explained by a experienced collector.

 

Best regards,

 

Jesper



#25 Stephen

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:35 PM

bit differ Jesper, patina left alone yes red rust NO

 

its up to Marlon to do his research, id ask a trained togi what to do with rust on nakago see what answer his answer is. 


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#26 Jesper

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:51 PM

No disagreement, Stephen. :)   I was unclear in my post, sorry for that. Red rust is a bad, bad thing and should always be removed.  Great that you help Marlon with the Nakago.


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#27 Brando

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:14 AM

Fantastic links and info Stephan and Jesper! I cant thank you enough for replying to this thread and helping out an outsider. It takes time out of your day to do so and I am truly grateful!

I have oiled the nakago figuring it would temporally freeze any cancer until I received instruction. The "chunks" of rust on the nakago seem to be really on there but the more I handle it by wiping the blade every few hours....the more "chunks" come off in my hand leaving it cleaner and chocolate brown.

I could never see myself buying nihonto even though they fascinate me. I grew up in a "metallurgical" home where words like ...grain structure, martensite, heat treating, normalizing, temper, ect were common words. My father taught metallurgy as a substitute, and we had a heat treating kiln and a old Dinosaur Rockwell testing machine in our basement. I made my first damascus billet at age 12 and constructed a sealed welding enclosure for welding Titanium at 16 (that did not work :()...  (I had dreams of making bicycle frames) My appreciation for nihonto was born around this time in my life when my father was rambling on about impurities and how the Japanese conquered impurities in there steel and even added carbon by adding straw and leaves to the billet during forging. (I still dont know how adding straw or leaves would add carbon)?

Anyway, Im rambling now,...I appreciate every facet of this sword and strive to know more about it.

Thanks again guys.      


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#28 Brando

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 05:27 AM

Are there any oils that I should refrain from using?



#29 Brando

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 07:47 AM

Lots of rust damage but I think its looking pretty good...

 

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#30 Brando

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:45 AM

Koshi Hiraita Midare?






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