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Silver Fittings - Show Them Off!


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#31 parfaitelumiere

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:12 AM

I have question regarding silver monts, is the tsuba always same material and design as the ferrules?
Il seems most of times, it's more a tachi style mounting, not a fuchi and hashira and at least with koi guchi and kojiri and a third silver piece on saya, and on both pictures on linked examples, looks like the tsuba is also made from silver with same design, Tosogucz work tends to confirm a same line design along all parts.
I am planning to purchase a sword with silver mountings, all is in original condition, only one hole on tsuka, no modified, but there is extra copper seppa, and the tsuba is not silver, so I was thinking there may have been original silver tsuba, but it has been replaced for the actual one.
Other way is there is some gap with time, and silver may be softer than bronze, so the gap came sooner and they added a seppa to fill it, but it's only it tsuba can be different with silver mount.


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#32 Geraint

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:16 AM

Dear Patrice,

 

Please forgive me if I misunderstand you but it does sound as though your suggestion is the case, a silver tsuba swapped for another.  Any rule in regard to koshirae is open to examples that prove otherwise but three seppa are really unusual unless something has been done to the sword.  (I have one sword with a late koshirae where a single shakudo o seppa has been fitted on one side with the normal sized pair but it's the only one I have seen where it was original to the sword.)  Rarely the mekugi ana in the tsuka itself can be damaged or worn and an extra seppa added by someone to "tighten the sword up".  If you cannot see any such wear then your first idea sounds the best.

 

Silver fittings do not always have silver seppa from what I have seen.  Have a look at the one Barry posted.

 

All the best.


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#33 Geraint

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:18 AM

Barry.

 

Thank you for posting that koshirae, it's a stunner :Drool: !  

 

All the best.


Geraint

#34 Vermithrax16

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:00 PM

Darcy and Barry, amazing!!!

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#35 alansue

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:35 PM

Hi there John (Coffey)
Better pictures of your outstanding Munetsugu would do it more justice
It is an all round fabulous piece
Alan

#36 parfaitelumiere

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:09 PM

Are silver fittings meant to be silver color or weathered?
I have a silver mount sword and I don't know if I have to clean the fittings or not.


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#37 Curran

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:49 PM

Patrice,

 

90% of the time, don't clean.

If in doubt, post a picture here for further input.


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#38 Jean

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:07 PM

Solid silver oxydizes quite quickly so, even if cleaned, it will quickly get back its patina.
Jean L.
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#39 parfaitelumiere

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 10:42 AM

here it is:

 

00029.jpg

 

details:

 

21586227_1565136076890404_1312012487_n.jpg

21764096_1565135286890483_874736493_o.jpg

 

when we remove the tsuka it's easy to see the fuchi is solid silver because the flat area is copper and ring is silver.
For what I know, it seems the proper finish would be polished, but with a prior oxydation, showing pattern.
It would mean I would have to clean my parts, even I would prefer to leave as it is.
My main issue is I am making a new tsuba, and I will have to find a way the tsuba to match fittings patina.
The original tsuba is not the right one, and it had 3 seppa.

 

21766917_1564182313652447_1147442052_o.jpg


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#40 Geraint

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:36 AM

Dear Patrice.

 

What a nice koshirae!  For what it's worth I would do exactly as you suggest and leave it as it is.  Your new tsuba looks the part, it should patinate quite nicely on it's own and will soon catch up with the rest of the fittings.  That way, and perhaps with a little judicious handling, the patina will appear on those parts where it should and not so much on those that are covered by the seppa for example.  

 

All the best with your project!


Geraint

#41 Ford Hallam

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:17 PM

Solid silver oxydizes quite quickly so, even if cleaned, it will quickly get back its patina.

 

he he he  :glee:   please forgive me Jean but someone has to put the record straight and I would be failing in my duty to you all, as Chief metallurgical pedant, if I didn't say something at this juncture.

 

In actual fact and contrary to what is often suggested, even by experienced jewellers (who really should know better ;-) ) silver does not oxidise very easily or quickly under normal conditions.

 

With jewellery alloys, like Sterling silver with 92.5% silver and the balance copper, the non-silver part (the copper) may oxidise but the silver, if it goes black, is inevitably forming a silver sulphide.

 

The problem with silver sulphides is that they can continue to build up until an attractive glossy black surface is achieved (this would be under fairly stable conditions where just enough sulphur was available in the air) but then, because this sulphide layer is more brittle than the underlying silver that it is consuming (exactly like rust on iron)  it begins to crack and flake off. At this point the underlying silver can often be seen as a dull white and coarsely corroded surface.  Restoring this sort of surface damage on fine carvings and inlay is extremely difficult.

 

The management of this sort of 'darkened' silver finish is therefore not always simple or straightforward.

 

I have written a short chapter on this and similar issues in my book which I hope will help inform the discussion moving forward.


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#42 CSM101

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:37 PM

Just to show you, there is a silver tsuba in the left corner. Ko-Mino, 15. century.

 

For a better description you can read Nr. 47 of the english Token Bijutsu. Or you take the DTI-catalogue 2016.

 

 

Of course I have a closeup. But I have no permission to show it here.

 

 

Uwe G.

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#43 Jean

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:42 AM

Ford,

How come my silverware oxydize and that I have to clean up them every other six months. Is tarnish the same as oxydation?

I'll post some pictures next time before cleaning my silverware.
Jean L.
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#44 Ford Hallam

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:18 AM

Hi Jean

 

it's not likely oxide but a sulphide :-) , it's a common misunderstanding to call all tarnish oxidisation. Rust on iron is mostly a form of oxidation.  But if we recognise that it's not really the oxygen in the air that is the big problem with silver we can better understand how to manage it.

 

It's not as bad as it used to be in the years before pollution became something we started to try and control, but there are still various sulphur compounds in the atmosphere. Hydrogen sulphide is one of the biggest culprits. Various papers, cardboards and packaging materials can also release sulphur compounds, with some cardboards it would sodium sulphide. Generally speaking re-cycled paper and card tends to have less of these sulphur compounds present.

Synthetic foams contain other chemicals like chlorides and fluorides which are also capable of causing tarnish. Even bubble wrap releases tarnish inducing chloride.

Humidity, heat and the length of time of exposure are obviously all factors.

 

You can get tarnish inhibiting capsules to store with your silver which might help reduce the problem for you. I can send you some links. And sulphur compound free storage boxes and tissue...if you want to go that far :-)


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#45 John A Stuart

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:50 AM

I find oil fired furnaces releasing sulphur bearing exhaust in homes to be particularly hard on silver. My silver plate and cutlery must be locked away for this reason. John


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#46 Bazza

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:53 AM


The problem with silver sulphides is that they can continue to build up until an attractive glossy black surface is achieved (this would be under fairly stable conditions where just enough sulphur was available in the air) but then, because this sulphide layer is more brittle than the underlying silver that it is consuming (exactly like rust on iron)  it begins to crack and flake off. At this point the underlying silver can often be seen as a dull white and coarsely corroded surface.  Restoring this sort of surface damage on fine carvings and inlay is extremely difficult.
========================================================================================
Not to argue or to take anything away from Ford's synopsis, something I saw decades ago (mit mine own eyes) still sticks in my mind.  At that time I was "into" antique firearms so already had an exposure (sorry!) to patination.  This singular thing was an Edward IV silver shilling in mint condition with a gun-metal gray patina.  I stayed for some time at the case admiring it.  To follow from Ford, the storage conditions for it to have survived over 400 years must have been optimal.
 
BaZZa.


#47 Zaksteve

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 02:58 AM

i have enjoyed all of your photos. Here are a few of mine.

Steve Zimage.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg
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Steve Zak.


#48 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:36 AM

Ford will probably appreciate my problem with keeping silver pristine. Several times a month, a plume of vog (volcanic fog) sweeps over the state from the Big Island (http://mkwc.ifa.hawa...plit/hawso2.cgi). Depending on the wind direction, it can hang around for weeks, & can really make life miserable for anyone with respiratory problems. And you can actually watch the the silver sulfide forming! We store our silverware in a sulfur-free box inside our vault, but it still looks awful when we pull it out to use it.


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#49 Vermithrax16

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:15 AM

Maybe Massachusetts is sulfur free but I have a LOT of silver things (sadly not nihonto related) out and about and they look like they did when I bought them (2-10 years ago).


Jeremiah L.

 

"I wonder if we're being drawn into an ambush. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. We have to do this. We've already bought tickets for the last dance. And it's going to be a real gala event."  - Robopocalypse 

#50 Curran

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:40 AM

Solid silver ko-Mino stuff.

c. 1525-1565

 

Uwe:  I enjoyed the image. Be sure to have the owner send that other ko-Mino stuff to us on loan here in Florida.

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#51 Vermithrax16

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:04 AM

If anyone has a silver tsuba, I am looking for a Christmas gift idea for the wife to get for me  :)


Jeremiah L.

 

"I wonder if we're being drawn into an ambush. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. We have to do this. We've already bought tickets for the last dance. And it's going to be a real gala event."  - Robopocalypse 

#52 parfaitelumiere

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:16 PM

would it be possible to get more detail pictures of the ko-mino siver fitting set?
I think I saw a similar set on a website but the fitting get a complete sleeve and re-built, so it's not possible to see original condition, yous seem to have kept all original assembly.


Patrice L

#53 Mantis dude

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 04:37 PM

Something I found a while back: 3mm thickness 6.6cm × 6.8cm.  Obviously you can see the difference between exposed to air and not exposed.mantis 129.jpg


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#54 Vermithrax16

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:04 PM

Great picture Ken. Really shows the differences well.

Jeremiah L.

 

"I wonder if we're being drawn into an ambush. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. We have to do this. We've already bought tickets for the last dance. And it's going to be a real gala event."  - Robopocalypse 

#55 Curran

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 09:17 PM

Ko mino fuchi kashira 002.jpg Hi Patrice-

 

You clicked to expand the photos?

I have added the only other photo I have.

I have no ability with photography. I doubt I can take better photos.

 

The silver ko-Mino tsuba that Uwe listed is a more famous and pristine example.

I think both it and my f/k are pictured in the Gifu museum book, but that tsuba is much much more valuable.

 

_________________________________________________

 

This thread is about silver, but silver and shibuichi are both common on toppei koshirae. I tend to think of shibuichi as _also_silver_.

Ford may stomp me for typing that.

 

This tanto has all shibuichi fittings from the lock mechanism to the habaki. Unfortunately, no signature.

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#56 Kurikata

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:39 AM

Another "silver tsuba" of mine.  Bamboos in Katakiri

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Bruno P.




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