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Shin Gunto To Review & Ask For Assistance


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#1 Erwin

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 05:36 PM

Dear All,

 

Today I was able to review a Shin Gunto in person to verify its authenticity.

 

There are markings on the Nagako which I posted in the translation help section but also added attached. The blade seems machine made, has some small nicks and damages but nothing major

 

There is also a small marking on the Habaki and the same on the Fuchi.

 

What is your impression on this looking at the attached pictures.

 

I truly appreciate your help in this and thank you upfront for any info you may have

 

With best regards

Erwin

 

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Erwin

#2 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 05:47 PM

Doesn't look authentic to me. The fittings are not correct, cannot tell much about the blade from those photos but nakago are not signed with Katakana.

 

I would run away.


John


#3 Stephen

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:07 PM

Pass


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#4 Erwin

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:09 PM

Thank you John,
I was sort disappointed with the design and execution of the Ashi, just not symetric or well ballanced. Not sure, thanks at least for your reply and advise

Best regards
Erwin
Erwin

#5 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 06:29 PM

Pick up a copy of Fuller & Gregory's Military Swords of Japan, can be found fairly cheap and is small enough to bring to auctions, sword shows or situations like this. Invaluable reference.

 

http://www.japaneses...uller-&-gregory


John


#6 Erwin

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 07:02 PM

Thank you , ordered and will study on this for sure, still a newbie on this so take all the advice I can get with thanks
Best regards
Erwin
Erwin

#7 Windy

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:09 PM

Can also highly recommend Dawson's. Have taken this to an auction house before when viewing. Was extremely valuable.
Cheers, Matt

#8 Ed Harbulak

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:46 AM

Pay particular attention to the handle wrapping which is typical of Chinese reproductions. The cross overs on the ito all go the same way while on genuine Japanese swords they alternate. That's a sure sign it's not Japanese, or at least an indication the nakago was not wrapped by someone with knowledge about the correct Japanese style. 


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Ed Harbulak

#9 IJASWORDS

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:13 AM

Definitely FAKE. Again I agree with the other experts, BUY DAWSONS BOOK! Will save you a lot of time (and money) chasing questionable swords...Neil.
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Neil

#10 BenVK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:15 AM

Larger pics would help but I don't see anything Chinese or fake about this.

 

Looks like a genuine old Japanese blade mounted in Navy mounts with an Army Tsuba or are they all Army type 98?  I'm not great on fittings. They seem genuine enough though. Tsuka has 2 holes which seem to closely match the mekugi ana in the nakago. Ito wasn't always wrapped in an alternating fashion so I wouldn't dismiss it for that reason.

 

Obviously the blade is the most important part and although it's been poorly "polished", scratched to hell is a more accurate description!,  it looks healthy enough and I see no major damage that couldn't be corrected.


Ben


#11 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:48 AM

Ben I think you need to order a copy of Dawsons/Fuller & Gregory. 


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John


#12 Ian B3HR2UH

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:12 AM

Ben I admire that you have the guts to post an opinion that is contrary to those that have gone before you , but you are dead wrong . Find a teacher or give the game away . Ian Brooks
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#13 Shamsy

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:56 AM

Ben I admire that you have the guts to post an opinion that is contrary to those that have gone before you , but you are dead wrong . Find a teacher or give the game away . Ian Brooks


Likewise, kudos to you for not jumping on the fake bandwagon (I've gotten a few bargains thanks to those guys) but a fake it is.
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Steve
Always interested in seeing and buying Type 95 NCO swords

#14 Erwin

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:07 AM

Dear All,

 

I am sort of sorry that I posted this, definitely not the intention to start any frictions here.

 

The guy who has this sword received it from his father who had served in the KNIL in former Dutch East Indies which was occupied by Japan during WOII

Dutch KNIL soldiers were present after the capitulation of Japan till the 1950’s re-establishing control over Indonesia (and other kolonies) and a lot of military equipment was left behind on the islands and even locally produced during the occupation of Japan. Although the age may be correct, the execution is poor, extremely poor and wonder if it is a locally produced item. From what I read, "Japanese military swords" were also produced abroad.

 

Anyhow, will leave it be. Already ordered the suggested books and do more reading......

 

thank you all

Erwin


Erwin

#15 paul griff

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:13 AM

Hello Erwin,
It's 100% fake..Stay away from this one Erwin..It can be difficult when you want something and either the clock is ticking or passion running high but you have done the right thing by seeking advice...Didn't have any when I started so learned the hard way...! If you want a full break down of what's wrong ask away.. Maybe private message is better for this ? Copies are getting better so it's not always in everyone's best interest to help the fakers by listing the faults where they can see them.....But just one...! The castings on the fittings are terrible...!
Regards,
Paul.
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#16 Erwin

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:21 AM

Thank you Paul,

 

I already stayd away from this one and truly appreciate the offer to conduct a PM in case needed.

As stated, already found the fittings very dodgy and it is great to have the advice. 

 

Again thanks and have a lovely day

 

Erwin


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Erwin

#17 paul griff

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:42 AM

Hello again Erwin,
Sorry forgot to add ( working nights has fried my brain )...Sword looks to have been made recently,weeks,months but not so many years..Too much detail for a very early copy,most of those are crude but well made if that makes any sense....? Remember,the minute the war ended local craftsman started to make copies for forces personal desperate for a souvenir to take home . A lot of these are labelled "last ditch " swords, genuine to the era but not used in the conflict...This is no new thing,locals were putting things together the day after the battle of Waterloo ended in 1815 ,many of which are now in museums and collections as " genuine " ! Sorry, I digress....No insult to the owner of the sword meant they may have it in good faith...
Regards,
Paul..
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#18 Erwin

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:16 PM

Interesting Paul, very interesting.

Guess you cannot stop a war industry just because the war ended.....

 

thanks again.

Erwin


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Erwin

#19 BenVK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:02 PM

Happy to admit if I've got this totally wrong which I probably have..

As I said, I'm not great on fittings so will defer to you guys.

 

But it's the nakago that's puzzling me. How does a blade made yesterday, last year or 20 years ago exhibit such deep corrosion/pitting? 

I own a couple of modern Chinese made blades and they don't look anything like this.

 

I would hate to see a genuine Nihonto thrown out with the bath water before we've had a proper look at it.


Ben


#20 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:13 PM

Nakago generally aren't signed or marked with katakana.


John


#21 paul griff

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 02:02 PM

Hello Ben,
It's not corrosion as such but a deliberately unfinished surface from the manufacturing process..It doesn't have the same characteristic look of age corroded metal...it's too smooth and shiny,no real depth and dare I say it...patina..! With the two "drilled "holes that look the same diameter in the nakago it looks like a deliberate attempt to deceive someone into thinking that it's a remounted blade....? I don't think they will ever get it 100% right and it's good to see them sometimes to keep you "on your toes"....! Have a look at recently "commercially polished" swords on that big auction site and you will see nakago that have been cleaned up during this hasty process....even they retain some patina...!
Regards,
Paul....

#22 BenVK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 04:23 PM

Interesting, thanks Paul, deliberately unfinished nakago is not something I've heard of or encountered before.

 

In an attempt to show that I'm not bonkers.....yet, I searched online for photos of tangs that are typical of Chinese manufacture, old and new, to compare.

 

Here's a really poor quality example that must be quite an early attempt. Not sure when they started making these, way before my time most probably.

Even though it's really poor, the tang has been finished to a certain degree and signed. 

 

 

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Ben


#23 BenVK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 04:30 PM

More recent examples from Paul Chen and Huawei.

It's clear how much better they are now but they still make them too long, unless you custom order.

 

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Ben


#24 paul griff

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:15 PM

Hello Ben,
The only reason I have seen them on reproduction swords is because of the "obsession" that people have to see the "signature"....! The local antique shop buys, and it seems has no problem selling all the "Japanese " swords they can get their paws on ! The only ones they don't attack are the nco's ones,again copies 99% of the time...If you want to see a genuine pitted nakago put Shin gunto by Emura in the search engine,look at images and you will see the one I bought off a board member....It's the one with the bullet damage....Cannot access photo's at the moment or I'd attach some for you and ....if you want a comparison...type in : Japanese sword nakago with fire damage,scroll down images for old swords with pitted nakago....Images are good but you cannot beat the look and feel you get hands on...I was lucky not long after I started collecting there used to be some very helpful dealers / sellers at the Birmingham arms fair ...had some tough lessons before that..!
Regards,
Paul.

#25 BenVK

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:16 AM

I own an Emura along with half a dozen other genuine Japanese swords plus a few modern, high end Chinese forged blades.

 

I respect your opinion Paul, I really do and appreciate your input, diolch yn fawr! but I don't get why I'm being ridiculed here.

Fact is, the blade in question maybe fake and that's fair enough but I've not seen a fake Chinese blade with a nakago like that before.

Show me another that's the same and then I'll get my coat..


Ben


#26 BenVK

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:43 AM

Searched for"Japanese sword nakago with fire damage"  just as you suggested and found nothing.


Ben


#27 paul griff

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:47 AM

Hello Ben,
Certainly no ridicule intended or implied..just describing where I have seen the pitted nakago in the past ,and , if you haven't ,where you can see a pitted example to compare against the one in question....Maybe I'm getting too cynical these days ? Another good topic to get get me thinking again though.....
Gorau o ran ,
Paul..

#28 paul griff

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:55 AM

Hello Ben,
It's on the Google engine same title , 31 image columns down...Markus Sesko has a nice example.

#29 Stephen

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:56 AM

back to org nakago, one can force corrode a nakago, its done all the time. 


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#30 BenVK

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 12:58 AM

Hello Ben,
It's on the Google engine same title , 31 image columns down...Markus Sesko has a nice example.

Just give me the link, it's not that difficult!


Ben





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