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Mantetsu Wakizashi


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#1 Ed

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 11:45 PM

Hi guys,

Has anyone ever seen or have any links or info regarding the specific production of Mantetsu wakizashi?

 

Looking for some info and found an old post here from 2010 about a wakizashi, and likely the one I now have.

 

I have looked through the Omura site, but could find nothing, same with google.


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#2 k morita

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:59 AM

Hi,

 

I have never seen/heard Tanto or Wakizashi made by Mantetsu.
If  it  exist, it's a great discovery.
 


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#3 Stephen

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:13 AM

yes waiting for other shoe to drop! Photos?


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#4 Ed

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:12 AM

It does exist, I have it in hand.  21" nagasa. Ubu, signed Koa Ishhin Mantetsu Saku Tsukuru.  Dated Showa Kanoe Tetsu Aki (1940)

 

Haven't had time to photograph it yet.  I will post some photos as soon as I can.

 

EDIT: typo noted.  Signed Tsukuru not Kore.


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#5 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:25 AM

How extraordinary Ed, we all know about the rare Tachi presentation models they produced but a wakizashi is completely unheard of.


John


#6 Dave R

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:33 AM

 Or perhaps this! (Used a cut-paste I had on file to save time hunting for the original post).

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#7 Ed

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:38 PM

Dave,

Yes, I had read that also.  I have seen various wakizashi mounted in Gunto koshirae (the 2010 post in the NMB archives show several).   I saw a naginata naoshi in SF maybe 10-12 years ago that was mounted in a Gunto Koshirae which had also been cut down to fit the blade perfectly.  It was outstanding.  So we know wakizashi in Gunto mounts while not seen on a daily basis, do exist.

 

The point or focus of my question however is much more specific in looking only for "Mantetsu" wakizashi.  I have scoured every book, the internet, contacted various collectors, etc., etc., to no avail.  

 

Steve's quote that you pasted sums up a reasonable criteria perfectly and reveals that there is no rule regarding length of blades in general, being made to fit. So, it seems reasonable that there would be others, and in fact I can not make myself believe there are not others.

 

Yet, I can find no reference of any other, much less another extant Mantetsu wakizashi.

 

If you or anyone finds one or info, please post it.


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#8 reeder

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:52 PM

i know of 1 other although I have not seen it, just discussed it. I did some digging back then and came up empty handed.

The quote provided is meaningless for mantetsuto. The length was quite uniform at 26 1/4". The wakizashi must have been special orders or gifts. More rare than the SMR stamped blades?!

Brandon

 

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#9 Bruno

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 04:04 PM

Ed,

 

Maybe a prototype? Imagine if it is the case, you put yours hands on something maybe unique.

 

Will you post photos or will you let us drooling to death?  :Drool:


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#10 Stephen

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 04:40 PM

maybe a broken blade to refit for short guy?


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#11 Ed

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 05:56 PM

Brandon, do you have or remember the details of the one you know of?  Do you know the owner, and/or could you ask for details?  I wonder if it is this very one, as there was some old discussion regarding it floating around cyber space.  This one was polished and is in shirasaya and again has a 21" nagasa.  Not cut down, but ubu.    

 

Bruno, I will post photos asap to prevent any drooling to death.  :laughing:   I have so much going on at the moment, that I literally have not had time to set it up and shoot any photos.  Will try my best to find time this weekend.


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#12 Bruno

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 06:32 PM

Brandon, do you have or remember the details of the one you know of?  Do you know the owner, and/or could you ask for details?  I wonder if it is this very one, as there was some old discussion regarding it floating around cyber space.  This one was polished and is in shirasaya and again has a 21" nagasa.  Not cut down, but ubu.    

 

Bruno, I will post photos asap to prevent any drooling to death.  :laughing:   I have so much going on at the moment, that I literally have not had time to set it up and shoot any photos.  Will try my best to find time this weekend.

 

:laughing:  

 

Seriously Ed, if it is a prototype I would keep it no matter its "huge" potential market value. Just find a Mantetstu katana made the same year and it would be a great set imho.


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#13 Mark

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:01 PM

i had a Yasukuni wakizashi some time back, can't recall seeing a Mantetsu


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#14 Dave R

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:38 PM

i know of 1 other although I have not seen it, just discussed it. I did some digging back then and came up empty handed.

The quote provided is meaningless for mantetsuto. The length was quite uniform at 26 1/4". The wakizashi must have been special orders or gifts. More rare than the SMR stamped blades?!

 Always easier to shorten a blade than get a longer one.  However two scenarios I can see, 1) special order, as you surmise, 2) the blank fractures during manufacture and so is finished as a wakizashi. 

 Looking around, I see quite a few high quality wakizashi gunto. Speaking from personal experience, a shorter blade is easier to use for an untrained person... especially if you have a pistol in the other hand.


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#15 Ed

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:37 PM

Why it exists is all speculation without some tangible evidence.  The evidence or proof of wakizashi production is what I am seeking, but am beginning to suspect speculation is all I will find.  The only thing definitive is that it is a Mantetsu Wakizashi and that it is unusual.  Aside from that, who knows.  It could be any of the speculated scenarios provided.


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Ed M.
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#16 Bruno

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:59 PM

Why it exists is all speculation without some tangible evidence.  The evidence or proof of wakizashi production is what I am seeking, but am beginning to suspect speculation is all I will find.  The only thing definitive is that it is a Mantetsu Wakizashi and that it is unusual.  Aside from that, who knows.  It could be any of the speculated scenarios provided.

I vote for my idea : a prototype  :glee:  That could explain why no info is available.


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#17 Ed

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:20 AM

Ok guys, I had more trouble than a one legged man at an ass kicking contest getting these photos.  Lighting didn't work, went and purchased new bulbs.  Still no light, went back to get new fixture, not in stock locally.  Drove 20 mile round trip to another location and purchased the fixture.  Got home and the cheap $%^&*'s didn't include a cord.  Back to store for cord.  

 

What a day, but I didn't want Bruno to die from drooling, so I guess it was worth while.

 

At any rate here are a few photos as promised.  I tried to focus on the Nakago, Hamachi, mei and date in order that you guys could see the important features and form your opinions regarding it be ubu, legit, etc..  I did forget to get the spine number on the nakago, but will add it later.

 

Note: Signature reads Koa Isshin Mantetsu Saku Kore

 

Mantetsu_Wak_Nakago_OFV.jpg

 

 

Mantetsu_Wak_HamachiO2.jpg

 

Mantetsu_Wak_Mei.jpg

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • Mantetsu_Wak_Hamachi_U2.jpg
  • Mantetsu_Wak_Date.jpg

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Ed M.
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#18 Stephen

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 04:14 AM

Nice work Ed...in time sugata please

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#19 Ed

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 02:51 PM

Ok Guys, here is a bit of an update and some additional photos, as promised.

 

Additional research has resulted in additional information being obtained. I have reached out to many collectors who focus primarily on the military facet of Japanese sword collecting. No one that I spoken with has seen another Mantetsu wakizashi.  

 

My research seems to indicate that the one other wakizashi mentioned above, the one sold on e-bay some time ago, may not have been legitimate as the "wa" number on the spine does not match the production date.  This according to one of our esteemed members who shall remain anonymous. 

 

Additional photos may be seen here: http://yakiba.com/Wak_Mantetsu.htm


Ed M.
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My comments are based on my own personal opinions and experiences and are not intended to influence others nor evoke argument or reprisal. 和


#20 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 05:30 PM

That's beautiful Ed, and I like the price!!!

Do you know what the "flakiness" is in the hamon, especially near the kissaki? When I had mime polished, Dave commented that he had heard that the Meantetsu blade was quite possible water quenched.
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#21 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 06:47 PM

Ura nie

#22 Stephen

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 06:49 PM

I think i can afford the 

$00 plus S/H  !!!!


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#23 drjoe

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

holy ara nie batman!  

(and yes, I'll also take it for $00)


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#24 Ed

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 08:42 PM

Bruce, Ara nie.  Generally speaking, no nie = water quench.  Quite honestly, I do not know what was the quenching process for Mantetsu or if that ara nie resulted more from the steel not being Tamahagane or from the quench.

 

I will say that using modern, more homogenous steels such as W-2(water quenching steel), I have created nie in an oil quench.  A very thin oil, but oil no less.

 

Damn, it is amazing how fast I could sell it at that price  :rofl:

 

Stephen, don't be so sure.  shipping would be very expensive  :thumbsup:


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Ed M.
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#25 Jean

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 09:18 PM



Ed,

you have written no nie=water quench, I thought No nie = oil quench and not the opposite...

Edited by Jean, 03 September 2017 - 02:25 PM.

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#26 Mortis

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:53 PM

Gentlemen,

There's been quite a few posts regarding Mantetsu lately. May I ask, has anyone ever seen or heard of any differences, in quality or any aspect really, regarding the various ways in which they were signed, the year or place it was made, or the presence/absence of stamps or kanji that's been lacquer/painted on the nakago? Some (like the one under discussion) look to have nicer yasurimei.

Kevin Jones @ ryujinswords has some great writing on the hardness hence well known cutting prowess of these swords http://www.ryujinswo...m/koaisshin.htm

Ed's superlative photos of the hamon makes it look like this one could take off an appendage fairly effortlessly. Even though it sounds weird, to me, I feel like the steel just does look harder!
Justin

#27 Ed

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 03:12 AM

Ed, you have written no nie=water quench, I thought No nie = oil quench and not the opposite... 

 

Jean, OOPs, my bad. Thanks for catching that typo.  Correction, no nie = oil quench.

 

 

BTW: I removed the link, as I only intended for the few people here following this thread to see it.


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Ed M.
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My comments are based on my own personal opinions and experiences and are not intended to influence others nor evoke argument or reprisal. 和





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