Jump to content


Photo

Kinda Fishy Story


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 10,068 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:02 PM

bought a tsuba while back from a mate down under, he tossed in some extras, two kashira, thank you sir.

 

after playing around cleaning them of lacquer a LOS bath, they were bright brass. 

 

well they left a lot to be desired about. So into the fishtank they went. forgotten about for a few weeks until tank cleaning time.

 

Seems the ammonia from fish poo do a fair job of pantiating. 

 

FYI Wont work on copper.

fishtankpatinabefor.jpg

fishtankpatina2.jpg

 


  • Jean, eternal_newbie, Greg F and 2 others like this
Stephen C.
USMC DEC 63 APR 73

#2 EdWolf

EdWolf

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:47 PM

Hi Stephen,

That turns out great. Good job.

Regards,

Ed


Ed

#3 christianmalterre

christianmalterre

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,197 posts

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:59 PM

so up from now one does "smell" you before one does sight you ?

:rotfl:

 

second and agree...nice job here! :thumbsup:

 

Christian


  • Stephen likes this

#4 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 11,904 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:59 PM

Not bad at all!
Do I need to get some fish now? :laughing:


  • Stephen likes this

- Admin -


#5 vajo

vajo

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,006 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:49 PM

:)

 

Sounds interesting Stephen. The hidden secrets of patination in ancient Japan. Now i know why the have koi  :laughing:


  • Stephen likes this

Chris S. 

 

 


#6 Valric

Valric

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 203 posts

Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:29 PM

Very nice. Can I send you a few for the same treatment? How much you charging ? :laughing:  


  • Stephen likes this

Chris H. 


#7 John A Stuart

John A Stuart

    Daimyo

  • Moderators
  • 6,910 posts
  • LocationArctic Coast, Canada

Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:54 PM

You could package the bottom sludge as Dr Fish's Patinination Compound and make some spare dosh. John


  • Stephen, Greg F and dominnimod like this

#8 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 10,068 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:31 PM

Chris...has to be brass
  • vajo likes this
Stephen C.
USMC DEC 63 APR 73

#9 EdWolf

EdWolf

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 253 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:22 AM

It only works with brass because it contains zinc. The zinc part gives the brass the nice patina. Brass can range in color from red to yellow depending on the amount of zinc added to the alloy.


Ed

#10 Ken-Hawaii

Ken-Hawaii

    Tokubetsu Juyo

  • Members
  • 2,549 posts
  • LocationKaneohe, Hawaii, USA

Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:49 AM

So feeding the fish different dosages of zinc supplements would change the patina colors, too, huh?  :rotfl:

 

Ken

 


  • vajo likes this

#11 SAS

SAS

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 883 posts
  • LocationAmerican Samoa

Posted 30 June 2017 - 09:16 AM

Brilliant! :clap:


  • Stephen likes this

Steve Shimanek
Artist/Bladesmith
"Summer grass, of stalwart warriors' dreams, the aftermath" Bassho

Life Member VFW, US Army Desert Shield/Desert Storm


#12 Stephen

Stephen

    Oyabun

  • Members
  • 10,068 posts
  • LocationIowa

Posted 30 June 2017 - 10:39 AM

a better explanation from Sensei

 

Probably not the poo so much as just oxygenated water. If there was any significant ammonia in the water the fish would be unwell I think. Ammonia, and salt, tends to promote the development of various copper salts which give us the common green/blue types of 'copper rust'. 

With your pieces I suspect the colour is coming almost entirely from cuprite (Cu2O, basically 2 copper atoms binding with one oxygen atom) which is red. Other alloy components, like zinc in this case, can become oxides of themselves, zinc oxide is white, and thereby serve to alter the red colour we see from the cuprite. There might be some traces of sulphides present which would also further modify the colour we 'see'. Copper alloys are not perfect mixtures, more like a cake with raisins in it. You can imagine a field of red cuprite with spots of white zinc oxide scattered about. We perceive a colour as one tone but it's a bitlike a TV image in that it's made up of only three colours, red, green and blue. 

A further 'modifier' to the wavelengths of light reflecting off the patina surface is the actual physical structure of that patina layer. Not so much the mechanical polish, although that is a part of it, but more the speed and time scale at which the patna grew. This effects the surface structure which in turn effect how light behaves when it hits it and is reflected. Less 'artfully' created patina can often have a 'stain' like layer form which inhibits further patina grows and leaves a slight translucent interference layer instead. This can look a bit like petrol/or gas on water.

It's obviously much more involved so I'm just trying to describe what's going on as simply as possible.

Hope some of the above helps. Feel free to quote me :-)

regards

 

fh


  • Brian, eternal_newbie, ROKUJURO and 3 others like this
Stephen C.
USMC DEC 63 APR 73

#13 SAS

SAS

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 883 posts
  • LocationAmerican Samoa

Posted 01 July 2017 - 09:47 PM

While we have Sensei's attention, i would like to ask about the forming characteristics of brass; it has been my sense that brass is brittle....if true, how were the kashira formed? Is its malleability based on thickness or alloy?


Steve Shimanek
Artist/Bladesmith
"Summer grass, of stalwart warriors' dreams, the aftermath" Bassho

Life Member VFW, US Army Desert Shield/Desert Storm


#14 Ford Hallam

Ford Hallam

    Heretic

  • Members
  • 2,565 posts
  • LocationTorquay, Southern England

Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:33 AM

Hi Steve

 

There are some brass alloys that are brittle but on the whole simple brasses with from 5% (gilding metal) to 37% (commercial brass CZ108) are all capable of being extensively worked. The correct annealing procedure is of course essential. Japanese brasses (shinchu) as found in tosogu range from around 10/15% to over 30% zinc. Edo period shinchu alloys invariably also contain traces of lead up to 1%. We expect to find traces of lead in the copper as a result to the refining processes that were used but those are typically less than 0.5%. Higher concentrations of lead might indicate a deliberate addition. Lead present at these low levels don't appear to reduce malleability but can play a part of developing a deeper patina tone. One of the shinchu alloys I make and use contains 15% zinc and .05% lead. I've drawn this alloy down to 0.5mm diameter wire quite easily.

 

hope that explains a bit.

 

fh


  • Stephen, eternal_newbie and ROKUJURO like this
 

 


#15 SAS

SAS

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 883 posts
  • LocationAmerican Samoa

Posted 04 July 2017 - 12:38 AM

Thank you very much for your reply, Ford Sensei; this is an interesting area  that i will have to delve into in the future.


  • Ford Hallam likes this

Steve Shimanek
Artist/Bladesmith
"Summer grass, of stalwart warriors' dreams, the aftermath" Bassho

Life Member VFW, US Army Desert Shield/Desert Storm





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq