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I'd like to recommend our own forum member Peter Bleed's book entitled NATIONAL TREASURE.  It was recommended to me early on in my journey. Passed the book on after reading and enjoying it to my best friend who isn't exactly a nihonto enthusiast. He even liked it a whole lot.

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The material isn't really redundant, Sean, just different ways of looking at the same thing. Please try to put everything in the context of Japanese history - WHY did the Kamakura smiths change from long, elegant weapons to much-heavier weapons of war? Why were Shinto smiths (& all other tosho since then) unable to recreate the Kamakura forging methods?

 

If you can do this consistently, then, instead of dry reading material, each tidbit you glean will give you an insight into how the Japanese mind has worked & evolved over the past thousand years!

 

Ken

 

I didn't mean that the historical information was redundant, I meant that almost every book I've looked at has the same basic things in each one, e.g., sugata type, nakago shape, hamon type, kissaki shape, boshi, etc.  There's only so many ways you can write these generally agreed upon things, that's what I meant by redundant info, not the actual history of Japan.  I love reading about that stuff.  To answer your question though, the reason the Kamakura smiths changed to heavier weapons of war was because the Mongolians invaded in 1274 and they were the first enemy to have heavy leather armor that required stronger swords.  I learned that from reading the Nagayama book :).  I haven't gotten far enough to know the reason for the Shinto smiths not being able to recreate the Kamakura forging methods.   So, I'm with you here, I'm not just reading to regurgitate information.  I'm really trying to learn the why's and how's and not just the who, what and where.

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I'd like to recommend our own forum member Peter Bleed's book entitled NATIONAL TREASURE.  It was recommended to me early on in my journey. Passed the book on after reading and enjoying it to my best friend who isn't exactly a nihonto enthusiast. He even liked it a whole lot.

 

Thanks for suggestion Robert.  I will definitely put that on my ever growing list :)

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You've got the right idea, Sean, being able to tie in why a blade was made a certain way as a function of when it was made. Could that be one reason why sugata is the first thing you should evaluate in kantei?

 

When you figure out why Shinto & later smiths are no longer able to use Kamakura forging methods, then take a look at why blades during Shinto & Shinshinto were so "ornate" compared to the earlier Koto blades. Fun brain food!

 

Ken

 

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Yes, that definitely makes sense to look at sugata first in kantei.  If you know your history of what function a particular sugata serves, then you should be able to place it into a specific period, which should narrow the school/smith down considerably.  Process of elimination in a way.

 

I'll resist the urge to google it :) I'm pretty close to this part of Nagayama's book, so I'll get back to you on that one later tonight.

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The only thing I can discern from my current book about the Shinto forging methods, is that they had access to better steel during this time so they did not need to use the same methods as Koto smiths.  They (Shinto smiths) also invented new methods due to having better steel, like kobuse.  I do know that they tried to replicate a lot of the swords from Koto, but most had been cut down to katana size and were o-suriage, so they ended up making shorter swords than what would've been produced in the Koto era.  Plus, daisho were gaining popularity, so they made katana and wakizashi more often than tachi, and kenjutsu was also coming around during this time so they needed shorter katana sized swords with less sori for this (that's my take on it anyway).

 

The reason the Shinto & shinshinto smiths made more "ornate" swords than Koto smiths, was because there was a civil war going on through much of the muromachi period and the swords had needed to be mass produced very quickly.  Once the country was unified by Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, they no longer needed these quickly produced low quality swords.  So, the Shinto smiths recreated those kamakura and nambokucho blades that were o-suriage and made more quality artistic swords that were katana sized as a result.  Plus, the government used to give brave warriors land and with the shortage of land they started giving them swords instead.  These swords were to be appraised for artistic value and Honami family came up with the system for kantei and started issuing origami certificates.  Which brings us back around to the original statement of looking at sugata first in kantei ;) pretty cool.

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Yes, those would've been useful for answering some of the questions ;) I didn't look at them until after I'd already posted my answer though and I had much more in depth info from the book.  I will save those charts though, as they are a great reference for sugata as it relates to necessary function.

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No to both, Sean. Keep thinking on the first one, as it's pretty important.

 

The second one is easier, but your dates are off. Shinto started with the Tokugawa Shogunate, which was well after Muromachi & Sengoku Jidai. The Shinto smiths didn't recreate the Kamakura & Nambokucho blades, which was the point of the first question.

 

Keep digging - it'll pay off.

 

Ken

 

 

 

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I'm not sure what dates you mean,  I was saying that the civil war during sengoku & muromachi period had created the need for mass produced blades that were low quality and once the civil war was over and keicho period began in the beginning of the Shinto era, they no longer needed these mass produced blades so they started to create more artistic valued swords.  The Shinto smiths tried to recreate the kamakura & nambokucho blades, but ended up making shorter katana sized blades due to the o-suriage nature of those older blades they were trying to replicate.  Since they were cut down, they had less sori and were not quite as big either, and of course, with no civil war going on they no longer needed to be only for battle and could be made to be more ornate.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Two part suggestion.

 

1. Sticky the reading list, it is very valuable.

 

2. Get on the Amazon associates program and use referrals to fund the board and put Amazon links in there where possible. 

 

I have been too busy to update my own books page since they changed the associates program but I would just change mine to link over here if you would put up referral links. 

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Wow, we did lose quite a lot with the reset, didn't we? Oh, well, let's keep going.

 

 

the civil war during sengoku & muromachi period had created the need for mass produced blades that were low quality

 

Okay, you're on the right track, Sean, but now you have to think about how forging techniques were passed from teacher to student back then. That should be enough of a hint.

 

And Darcy is right-on with his suggestions.

 

Ken

 

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Wow, we did lose quite a lot with the reset, didn't we? Oh, well, let's keep going.

 

 

Okay, you're on the right track, Sean, but now you have to think about how forging techniques were passed from teacher to student back then. That should be enough of a hint.

 

And Darcy is right-on with his suggestions.

 

Ken

 

Forging techniques would have been passed on through apprenticeship, which takes 5 years I believe.  I'm pretty sure that the cities that were most prominent in sword making during kamakura & muromachi ended up changing to different ones when the civil war ended and Shinto era began.  So, since travel and communication was not near as easy as it is today, it would've been harder for smiths that knew these older forging methods during koto, to pass along those methods to smiths in other cities that were now more prominent in sword making.  Is this the conclusion you were trying to get me to come to? 

 

Brian - There are quite a few recent posts missing from this thread, is something wrong?

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Wow, we did lose quite a lot with the reset, didn't we? Oh, well, let's keep going.

 

 

Okay, you're on the right track, Sean, but now you have to think about how forging techniques were passed from teacher to student back then. That should be enough of a hint.

 

And Darcy is right-on with his suggestions.

 

Ken

Not on a thumb drive?  :)

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Forging techniques would have been passed on through apprenticeship, which takes 5 years I believe.  I'm pretty sure that the cities that were most prominent in sword making during kamakura & muromachi ended up changing to different ones when the civil war ended and Shinto era began.  So, since travel and communication was not near as easy as it is today, it would've been harder for smiths that knew these older forging methods during koto, to pass along those methods to smiths in other cities that were now more prominent in sword making

 

You're 99% of the way there, Sean, but not quite on the right track.

 

During Muromachi, & especially Sengoku Jidai, tosho were forced to create mass-produced blades, as you found, & the key word is forced. There were never enough weapons to suit Daimyo, & when all of a tosho's time is spent creating cheap weapons of war, what time does he have to pass on essentially-useless information to his students about gorgeous Kamakura & Nambokucho forging techniques that no longer apply to what the Daimyo needs? Look up kazuuchimono. Another key point is that forging techniques were virtually never passed down in writing, just orally & by demonstrating. So what happens after 100 or more years when no forging techniques are passed down? That's 4 or 5 generations, Sean, & wars went on for even longer than that. So, all of a sudden, Ieyasu Tokugawa finishes unifying the country, tosho everywhere can finally take a deep breath - & that's when they realize that they don't know how to make the great Koto blades any longer!

 

Also, they now have to make a living, & with no wars, their target market is now mostly Samurai. But Samurai no longer go to war, so they want "pretty" blades that they can show off, & we start to see Shinto blades with garish hamon...& little, if any, jihada. I think you can take it from there. I've left out quite a lot, of course, but you can see how history molded the sword in Japan (& everywhere else).

 

Ken

 

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You're 99% of the way there, Sean, but not quite on the right track.

 

During Muromachi, & especially Sengoku Jidai, tosho were forced to create mass-produced blades, as you found, & the key word is forced. There were never enough weapons to suit Daimyo, & when all of a tosho's time is spent creating cheap weapons of war, what time does he have to pass on essentially-useless information to his students about gorgeous Kamakura & Nambokucho forging techniques that no longer apply to what the Daimyo needs? Look up kazuuchimono. Another key point is that forging techniques were virtually never passed down in writing, just orally & by demonstrating. So what happens after 100 or more years when no forging techniques are passed down? That's 4 or 5 generations, Sean, & wars went on for even longer than that. So, all of a sudden, Ieyasu Tokugawa finishes unifying the country, tosho everywhere can finally take a deep breath - & that's when they realize that they don't know how to make the great Koto blades any longer!

 

Also, they now have to make a living, & with no wars, their target market is now mostly Samurai. But Samurai no longer go to war, so they want "pretty" blades that they can show off, & we start to see Shinto blades with garish hamon...& little, if any, jihada. I think you can take it from there. I've left out quite a lot, of course, but you can see how history molded the sword in Japan (& everywhere else).

 

Ken

Each to his own but I so do love Shinto era swords.

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So did I, Jeremiah, so did I. Then my sword mentor sat me down for a couple of years of closely examining elite Koto blades, & my eyes were finally opened. I'm slowly selling off my Shinto blades, & replacing them with Kamakura & Nambokucho blades. But it's unlikely you'll ever understand why unless you can find someone who can let you hold & examine a Rai, a Go-Yoshihiro, a Naotsuna, & an Ichimonji or two, for as long as you'd like, along with the ability to get answers to your questions. There's such a huge, quantifiable difference between these blades & even the best of my Shinto blades, that I can no longer see myself collecting the newer ones. But your mileage may vary.

 

Ken

 

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What? you have read all your books twice??? 

 

Not yet ;) but I have read Yumoto, Nagayama, Sato, and Yoshihara's books so far once.  Oh and most of Robinson's Primer as well.  Only have fact and fundamentals and Botts book left to read since they were the last I got.  I'm a fairly quick study, but I'm always looking to learn more no matter how much I think I know (or don't in this case).

 

I believe it was Art of the Samurai from The Metropolitan Museum.

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b475-art-samurai-metropolitan-museum

Grey

 

Yes!! :) Thank you Grey.  I will put that on my wish list on your website, which is up to 7 or 8 books now.  I'm about to pull the trigger on that Fujishiro set you've got with the English translation copies.  I'm also really considering getting the Brown Hawley book and Vol 4 Shinto of Nihonto Koza as well.  Just gotta find a money tree somewhere and I'll be good to go ;)

 

You can also download a PDF of Art of the Samurai for free from the Met's website:

 

http://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpublications/Art_of_the_Samurai_Japanese_Arms_and_Armor_1156_1868

 

There are many other Japanese related publications available on there as well if you search.

 

James

 

Thank you James :) I just downloaded that PDF and its now in my folder with several other ebooks I've come across.

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You're 99% of the way there, Sean, but not quite on the right track.

 

During Muromachi, & especially Sengoku Jidai, tosho were forced to create mass-produced blades, as you found, & the key word is forced. There were never enough weapons to suit Daimyo, & when all of a tosho's time is spent creating cheap weapons of war, what time does he have to pass on essentially-useless information to his students about gorgeous Kamakura & Nambokucho forging techniques that no longer apply to what the Daimyo needs? Look up kazuuchimono. Another key point is that forging techniques were virtually never passed down in writing, just orally & by demonstrating. So what happens after 100 or more years when no forging techniques are passed down? That's 4 or 5 generations, Sean, & wars went on for even longer than that. So, all of a sudden, Ieyasu Tokugawa finishes unifying the country, tosho everywhere can finally take a deep breath - & that's when they realize that they don't know how to make the great Koto blades any longer!

 

Also, they now have to make a living, & with no wars, their target market is now mostly Samurai. But Samurai no longer go to war, so they want "pretty" blades that they can show off, & we start to see Shinto blades with garish hamon...& little, if any, jihada. I think you can take it from there. I've left out quite a lot, of course, but you can see how history molded the sword in Japan (& everywhere else).

 

Ken

 

Ahh yes, so I was pretty close there.  This definitely makes sense though, since it takes so much time to teach an apprentice how to forge swords.  They would never have had enough time to do so with all of the blades having to be produced at the time.  Its amazing to me how such seemingly small details at the time ended up creating an entirely new way to make swords, while at the same time losing forever the methods used to forge those uniquely brilliant kamakura & Nambokucho blades.  Interesting stuff indeed sir :)

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So did I, Jeremiah, so did I. Then my sword mentor sat me down for a couple of years of closely examining elite Koto blades, & my eyes were finally opened. I'm slowly selling off my Shinto blades, & replacing them with Kamakura & Nambokucho blades. But it's unlikely you'll ever understand why unless you can find someone who can let you hold & examine a Rai, a Go-Yoshihiro, a Naotsuna, & an Ichimonji or two, for as long as you'd like, along with the ability to get answers to your questions. There's such a huge, quantifiable difference between these blades & even the best of my Shinto blades, that I can no longer see myself collecting the newer ones. But your mileage may vary.

 

Ken

 

I too love Shinto era swords, but not necessarily more than Koto blades.  I just can't afford TH Koto swords in good polish, so I'll stick with mostly Shinto for now and maybe one day when I grow up and get big, I can get some lovely Kamakura or Nambokucho swords.  I've been extremely fortunate to be able to see several Koto, Shinto, Shinshinto, and gendai blades in good polish up close for as long as I wanted and could ask questions as well.  This was definitely, as you said, an eye opening experience for me to be able to see all the differences in jigane, sugata, yakiba, kissaki, and boshi between the different eras and even periods within an era (e.g. kamakura & nambokucho).  Alas, I'll have to keep my collecting to mostly Shinto and maybe some late Muromachi Koto blades for now and hopefully one day I can manage to get a few kamakura & nambokucho blades as well.  I'm not even against a shinshinto or gendai (though I doubt I'll ever want a shinsakuto, but you never know I guess), especially if its the right price and it really "speaks to me". 

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