Help My Awakening To Old Iron

[Fred Geyer]

Richard

 

your photo is better then mine!!!

 

Fred

[b.hennick]

Hello, contributors to this thread. I have finished editing the thread so that it can be published in the JSSUS Newsletter. Names of contributors have been replaced with a letter. The first person to post is referred to as A in the whole thread. The second as B.

I have removed a few posts that did not move the discussion forward. In one case, I asked for advice on whether to keep or remove a post. It was kept. Images were moved to conserve space. Threads can go on for years and years. I chose post-#53 as the stopping point. 

If you want me to edit or remove your contribution to the thread please PM me. I will wait a week before finalising the thread and submitting it for publication.

The thread is attached as a PDF

RevisedlHelp My Awakening To Old Iron.pdf

 

[Alex A]

A couple from those impartial Samurai that didn't get into disputes

 

[Pete Klein]

Uesugi Kenshin's koshirae without tsuba.  I have to wonder if not having a tsuba in place caused the tsukaito to move down with use causing the gap by the kashira or if it moved down after the tsuba was lost over time with handling?

[Alex A]

You might be right Pete, looks to be room for a thin iron plate tsuba.

[Pete Klein]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were Kinko tsuba actually.  Thin copper alloy can be quite tough and more aesthetic with these koshirae. 

[Alex A]

Right again Pete, id never realised that Muromachi Kinko tsuba could be that thin, one here at 2mm, learn something new every day http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/irogane2.htm

[Ford Hallam]

Thin copper alloy can be quite tough

 

Pete, which alloy do you mean?

 

[JohnTo]

'If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.  Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away.'  David Thoreau.

 

'Go your own way.'  Fleetwood Mac

 

Remember if we only colected 'old iron' the rest of the tsuba world would be worthless.  Collect that which gives you most pleasure (and is affordable)

 

regards, John

[b.hennick]

Thank you to those who wrote about their posts. I have made the requested deletions. I will now submit the edited thread to the JSSUS Newsletter. 

[parfaitelumiere]

Here is my first old iron

 

diameter is about 8,3cm, thickness, 3,5mm on the rim, then quickly thinner and increasing thickness when we go to center.

[kissakai]

I really like your image

[parfaitelumiere]

Thanks a lot,
I tried to be as accurate as possible, especially the colors are ok, kind of dark reddish brown, with some almost black areas on seppa dai.
I wanted to get full view on both sides and close up, but on same picture.
My standart size is 1920x1080, but I had to make a bit higher size for this one, to keep quite large full view of each side.
I took a shot of all my tsuba today, and I will do same for other, and also a view of all together (same scale).
Shame, I have a heianjo, and 2 plain iron tsuba, not yet home, one is mokume pattern, but probably some new patina to do on it.
I have another old iron to put on this thread, even I think it's much younger than the one I just pictured.
Just simplicity, one round, 3 holes, for 3 blades.

[parfaitelumiere]

I have question about a specific tsuba design refered as "ko katsushi"
I found this picture, described as momoyama period, size 8,4x8,4x0,4cm from jggilbert website.

amida yasuri, and some remnant nunome zogan file marks here and there.

I later found this picture, smaller,7,7cm, but far better condition, with original hitsu ana shape.

No information about thickness
It is described as kamiyoshi school, 17-18th

I finally found this one, 8x8x0,3cm, no hitsu ana no amida yasuri, no numome.
Some thick rust here and there:

We can clearly see it's same maker or at least same school using same technic and pattern, but different finish, from most elaborated on top to simpliest on bottom (no amida yasuri or nunome zogan)
But is it possible to fix a period, it seems the ume flower patter is very popular at least from mid muromachi.
I have 2 other ume flower pattern

the one I pictured in this thread is obviously muromachi period for me.

my other is obviously later, thicker plate, more simple steel too, and far better condition.

 

But this one with 5 flowers, how to determinate a period, can we consider no hitsu ana, thinner plate and quite larger size to put it older, or can we consider the same design could survive for more than 200 years with no or only a few modifications?

 

 

 

 

 

[sabi]

Patrice,

 

The short answer to your question is the latter.  You'll find some sukashi patterns that are almost entirely exclusive to a specific school, but this isn't one of them.  That busy sakura/ume motif is seen on old tsuba like the one from Jim's site, then mid-Edo Umetada and Yamakichibei among many others, and finally on late mass produced, cookie cutter guards which is what I suspect the third one to be (although its horrendous condition makes it harder to properly assess).