Help My Awakening To Old Iron

[b.hennick]

The Somin tsuba is great art but as a tsuba it has a problem. The design goes into the seppa dai and so would be covered when mounted. There are some wonderful Kano Natsuo tsuba that I would gladly take over most iron tsuba. Miochin flat inlay is also great soft metal work. 

I think that great tsuba can be iron or soft metal. The Higo example in post #20 is outstanding.

Most of my tsuba are iron but lately, I have been buying older yamagane (copper) pieces that are simple in design but great pieces to me. 

[Pete Klein]

Another from Fred's site - Higo Juyo koshirae:

 

 

 

 

[Henry Wilson]

I love those koshirae. I remember when they were for sale long ago. The uchigatana one is intersting as the end of the saya is rounded. Sasano suggests somewhere in Tosogu no Kigen, (or is it Uchigatana Goshirae?) that it could indicate that it is a secondary item of a daisho. Just some Sunday morning musings☕️

[Tanto54]

Hi Barry,

 

All of the work within the seppadai on the Shomin Tsuba is below the ground so there is no problem at all (as you may know, the Japanese aesthetic often suggests or hides part of the image - this is not uncommon on good tsuba that were actually mounted and used).  

[Steve Waszak]

Dear Steve,

 

Don’t get me wrong - I like old iron too, but I’m really tired of the “Emperor has no Clothes” elitism that we hear from some on the “hard metal” side (not saying its you...).  For example, they say ridiculous things like kinko tsuba weren’t used by real samurai or were too soft to be used in battle - BS.  Or they say, as you mature, you’ll “graduate” and realize how gaudy kinko is and how sophisticated iron is (i.e., see Hideyoshi vs. Rikyu comparisons - come on, that’s unfair).  Sure the patina on an old, worn-out manhole cover looks great, but so does tasteful kinko.  Let’s use your own example and put it next to a kinko example (that many on the “hard metal” side would say is “gaudy”).  While “art” is in the eye of the beholder, you are not being honest with yourself if you cant admit that the Shomin kinko below is at least as good as your “hard metal” example.  I guess that I’m just reacting to what appears to be attempts to persuade Chris by jovial elitism and embarrassment.

 

Manhole Cover.jpg

 

Shomin Tsuba.jpg

Hi George,

 

Well, I can agree with some things you offer here, but not others.  I would certainly agree that kinko were used by bushi, and we can see from examples in Uchigatana no Koshirae, I believe, that soft-metal tsuba (yamagane, mostly, I think) were mounted on warriors' koshirae, at least sometimes.  I don't find either of these points to be very debatable, really.  Where I would not necessarily agree is that I'm "not being honest with [myself] if I can't agree that the Shomin kinko...is at least as good as [my] 'hard metal' example."  The problem here is what you mean by "good."  If by "good" you mean that the Shomin piece is as well made (i.e. technically executed) as the Yamakichibei guard here is, with that I can agree.  Where I will certainly not agree is that the Shomin piece is anywhere near as tasteful (to use your term) as the Yamakichibei.  I can't stand the Shomin tsuba.  While I would not at all call it "gaudy," in my view, it is hopelessly saccharine, even mawkish, in presenting the subject it does (despite its technical excellence).  The plate is bland, dull, featureless.  The tsuba is utterly lacking in haki (power, ambition), an aesthetic value highly prized (in my sensibility of things).  Then again, it's not trying to express this value.  Which is perfectly fair:  not all works need aim for the same aesthetic value/expression.  But see, what we're really discussing here is taste, and as the saying goes, there is no accounting for taste.  I can't say why I have always had (right from the beginning of my interest in this stuff) such a visceral dislike of all tsuba like this Shomin, or why I gravitate so strongly to the quiet iron guards, other than to say that certain Japanese aesthetic principles (yuugen, mono no aware, shubusa, sabi, including and especially haki) are vastly more appealing to me than others, and that some tsuba (such as many pre-Edo iron Owari works) satisfy this set of aesthetic principles/values far more effectively than other types of tsuba do, and this includes about 99.9% of Edo kinko.  For me, a good deal of Edo kinko is akin to a ruby-studded gold Rolex in its aesthetic sensibility; even those Edo kinko tsuba which are not so flamboyantly bling-y are still often saddled with a dripping sentimentality that makes them (in my eyes) paragons of triteness.  Is there anything inherently wrong with this?  Maybe not, but the taste required to be drawn to such things is certainly not anything I've been blessed with.   

 

As for attempting to "persuade Chris by jovial elitism and embarrassment," remember, he came to us seeking help.  If he is interested in expanding his taste, and learning what it is about some "manhole covers" that makes them great, and why so many are so celebrated by the Japanese, I am going to do what I can to help out. 

[Tanto54]

Dear Steve,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I applaud your attempt to help Steve appreciate iron. I just hope/wish that you could do it without denigrating kinko - he didn't request that....

 

It appears to me that all too often when proponents of iron extoll its virtue, they do so by putting down kinko and its proponents instead of simply talking about the values of iron (e.g., if you like iron, then you are erudite like me and the tea master, but if you like kinko, then you are like the nouveau riche, tacky warlord....) 

[Guido]

Robert sums it up quite neatly:

 

It appears to me that all too often when proponents of iron extoll its virtue, they do so by putting down kinko and its proponents instead of simply talking about the values of iron (e.g., if you like iron, then you are erudite like me and the tea master, but if you like kinko, then you are like the nouveau riche, tacky warlord....) 

 

No, this discussion isn’t about taste, despite the constant covfefe. It’s about real men (i.e. real samurai) who not only didn’t eat quiche, but used iron tsuba (with a few exceptions); real men’s tsuba; and the older, the more desirable to the sophisticated collector. And if in doubt, it’s older than it looks, by default.

 

Some references to the more obscure Japanese philosophical concepts (as understood by non-Japanese) leave the novice collector longing for those qualities. It also makes sense financially, because that bling-bling of the nouveau rich, pimps and child molesters who sported kinkō is usually more expensive than the iron that eBay, Yahoo!Japan etc. is overflowing with. For US$ 500.- one gets only a damaged, single Gotō menuki, but two iron tsuba. And if you stare at them long enough, light some incense, and listen to shakuhachi music, you even might be able to see the face of the Virgin Mary in them. Because you were told by seasoned collectors that those random bumps are not slips of the hammer, but the embodiment of tea taste. Nod knowingly, and admire the emperor’s new clothes.

 

There’s nothing wrong with having a bias for old iron – by all means, make your case for it. But that easily can be done without belittling other’s choices to make your’s look better. And please don’t compare apples with oranges, but items of equal artistic qualities from both sides of the spectrum.

 

Btw, I personally don’t have any bias: I collect both, iron and soft metal, and combinations thereof – because I collect art (at least as I understand it), and not romantic notions.

 

Anyway, after re-reading my reply, I realized it sounds harsher than I intended it. But what the heck, I’m quite annoyed by the constant attempts of “the iron guys” to prove their superiority. So feel free to wear the shoe if it fits, or simply dismiss my ramblings. I guess at least I won’t be accused of beating around the bush.

 

To illustrate my point, I randomly selected 5 iron and 5 soft metal tsuba from my collection (well, actually not that randomly: I’m too lazy to get out my camera, so I’m going to post those tsuba I have [more or less] decent photos of). Furthermore, and to keep them in the same bracket, they are all tokubetsu hozon. Feel free to discuss, my feelings are not easily hurt.

 

P.S.: I imagine that if Trump Tower had a tea room, it would look pretty much like Hideyoshi's!

[Guido]

Kinkō

[Guido]

Tankō

[Guido]

And for good measurement, iron with soft metal inlays:

[Steve Waszak]

Well, I tried to stress that my views on Edo kinko are just my views, and that taste is an individual thing that is very difficult if not impossible to account for.  And I started off "innocently" enough, though I did make the comment about Hideyoshi's over-the-top tea room.  But really, George, if you hadn't introduced the "manhole covers," "old charcoal briquettes," and "Emperor's New Clothes" business in relation to old iron tsuba, I'd likely have not gotten into my personal views of Edo kinko.  I find it ironic that you can state that "too often when proponents of iron extoll its virtue, they do so by putting down kinko and its proponents instead of simply talking about the values of iron," when it was you who really started this conversation in this direction by making the post you did (#18).  To say that you think that "there are far too many collectors who are admiring the Emperor's New Clothes" is implying 1.  that the tsuba in question are not deserving of this admiration;  2.  that those who do admire such works are less than astute or are clearly not seeing things "correctly";  and that 3. you have the authority to determine which iron pieces are "manhole covers" and which are, in fact, legitimately good pieces.  Sheesh. 

 

I'm still waiting for you to produce an example of an "old charcoal briquette" that would represent Emperor's New Clothes syndrome at work.  I am very curious to see what early iron tsuba that others see as excellent is actually, according to you, one that is not worthy of such admiration/appreciation, and is in fact fooling those poor benighted collectors. 

 

Having said all of what I have, I am not intending to suggest that I think all or most iron tsuba are masterpieces.  In my view, most are actually rather banal and ordinary works---serviceable and appealing enough, but not especially noteworthy, and not worthy of particular praise or appreciation (again, in my opinion).  There are only a relative few that achieve the level of masterpiece, I would say.  But I would also say that the very best iron tsuba (I mean here sword guards of the level of Nobuiye, Yamakichibei, Hoan, the Higo masters, etc...) are aesthetically superior to ANY Edo kinko tsuba.  Why?  Not because of any automatic technical superiority, necessarily (although the forged plates of such early iron masters are, I think, far more interesting and beautiful than the featureless plates of the majority of Edo kinko tsuba, a sentiment I know Dr. Torigoye would share in abundance), but because of the aesthetic sensibility and vision possessed by these early iron masters versus that of Edo kinko artists.  An analogy I might draw here is between Noh and Kabuki theater.  Kabuki, like Edo kinko, has broad appeal.  It is popular.  It is aimed at satisfying the masses.  The lowest common denominator here is, well, low.  Noh, on the other hand, requires a more educated audience to fully appreciate its nuances, allusions, and implications.  It is subtle, layered, and yes, sophisticated.  Yuugen, it may be argued, is the chief aesthetic principle/quality informing Noh theater.  This same aesthetic value informs many of the great early iron tsuba (much as it did the Tea of Momoyama Japan, which is why it is necessary to study Tea in this period to understand the iron tsuba produced in that same period).  It is not an aesthetic value to be found in Edo kinko.  Does it make one/me an elitist to appreciate, embrace, and extoll the virtues of this value in early iron (Momoyama) tsuba, and to see other (Edo kinko) works as lesser?  If so, I'm fine with that.  I have no problem being an elitist.  I actually like your term---jovial elitist.  I think I shall adopt it.    

 

When we evaluate tsuba, we can of course assess the technical qualities of a given work, i.e. how well an artist has executed his vision and design.  But evaluating merely the technical aspects is secondary at best.  The primary consideration, I would argue, is the vision and design (that is, the aesthetic sensibility) itself.  If an artist has a mediocre aesthetic sensibility, if his vision and design are second- or third-rate, how well he executes that vision/design becomes essentially irrelevant.  And this is what you have with the huge majority of Edo kinko:  third-rate aesthetic sensibility (see the Kabuki analogy above).  So, sure, some of the technical aspects of these works are astounding, and the pieces can be "pretty," if one does not mind the treacly sentiment so many of them express.  But for me, the greatness of the early (Momoyama) iron tsuba is in their combination of a deeply allusive and nuanced aesthetic sensibility with awesome technical achievement in the forging of the plate and their treatment of the plate (tsuchime, yakite, tekkotsu, jimon, patina, etc...), together with sensitively placed and rendered sukashi, nikubori, etc...  The brilliant forming of the sugata, niku, rim, and other elements into a tactile, three-dimensional work of art completes a total package.  It is the aesthetic sensibility, first and foremost, though, that matters.  And as an elitist, I just don't see a high-level aesthetic sensibility in Edo kinko guards, with very, very few exceptions.  Shrug.  That's just how I see it. 

[Bazza]

Ahhhhh, Guido, I see why we don't have more of you.  When you care to pop up you send grown men into a closet, close the door and weep till they're dry...  And no wonder I don't put up my eclectic trivia!!!

 

That aside (sob) I have IMMENSELY enjoyed this thread with well-presented discussions from all sides of a multi-faceted divide.  There is much to admire across the spectrum.  I think the struggles we 'collectively' have to find where we are 'at' in this great endeavor of ours are well articulated here.  Thanks blokes.

 

BaZZa

[Steve Waszak]

 

 

 

No, this discussion isn’t about taste, despite the constant covfefe. It’s about real men (i.e. real samurai) who not only didn’t eat quiche, but used iron tsuba (with a few exceptions); real men’s tsuba; and the older, the more desirable to the sophisticated collector. And if in doubt, it’s older than it looks, by default.

 

Some references to the more obscure Japanese philosophical concepts (as understood by non-Japanese) leave the novice collector longing for those qualities. It also makes sense financially, because that bling-bling of the nouveau rich, pimps and child molesters who sported kinkō is usually more expensive than the iron that eBay, Yahoo!Japan etc. is overflowing with. For US$ 500.- one gets only a damaged, single Gotō menuki, but two iron tsuba. And if you stare at them long enough, light some incense, and listen to shakuhachi music, you even might be able to see the face of the Virgin Mary in them. Because you were told by seasoned collectors that those random bumps are not slips of the hammer, but the embodiment of tea taste. Nod knowingly, and admire the emperor’s new clothes.

 

There’s nothing wrong with having a bias for old iron – by all means, make your case for it. But that easily can be done without belittling other’s choices to make your’s look better. And please don’t compare apples with oranges, but items of equal artistic qualities from both sides of the spectrum.

 

Btw, I personally don’t have any bias: I collect both, iron and soft metal, and combinations thereof – because I collect art (at least as I understand it), and not romantic notions.

 

Anyway, after re-reading my reply, I realized it sounds harsher than I intended it. But what the heck, I’m quite annoyed by the constant attempts of “the iron guys” to prove their superiority. So feel free to wear the shoe if it fits, or simply dismiss my ramblings. I guess at least I won’t be accused of beating around the bush.

 

To illustrate my point, I randomly selected 5 iron and 5 soft metal tsuba from my collection (well, actually not that randomly: I’m too lazy to get out my camera, so I’m going to post those tsuba I have [more or less] decent photos of). Furthermore, and to keep them in the same bracket, they are all tokubetsu hozon. Feel free to discuss, my feelings are not easily hurt.

 

P.S.: I imagine that if Trump Tower had a tea room, it would look pretty much like Hideyoshi's!

Oh Guido, Guido, Guido...

 

Of course this is about taste.  That's all it can be about.  All the silly, sarcastic references you make to "real" samurai and "real" men, even if we were to take them at face value, would still boil down to conceptions of taste (i.e. aesthetic expressions "suitable" for such categories of individual).  So it is, most assuredly, about taste.  And your overstatement about the "sophisticated collector" just makes your post bombastic.  Likewise your flaccid attempt to denigrate the appreciation of old iron via that inane reference to "slips of the hammer" and the Emperor's new clothes.  Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and produce an example here of an early iron tsuba that you KNOW presents with "slips of the hammer" rather than any conscious effort to produce an effect associated with specific aesthetic principles.  SHOW us a no-doubter EXAMPLE of a celebrated tsuba which is really an "Emperor's New Clothes" early iron sword guard.  Be sure to turn off your shakuhachi music when you do it so your head will be clear, and you'll be free of any "romantic" demons that seek to cloud your judgment.  Sheesh.  What I'm tired of is smug individuals who denigrate early iron collectors' affinity for the aesthetic features present in those works and which features can be cogently argued to have been intended (*Note:  just because YOU don't understand or like the argument doesn't mean it's not cogent).  And just because you don't/can't understand elusive aesthetic principles does not mean others can't or don't, or that they don't have positive substance and meaning .  Does your inability to see a clear curving of the earth at the horizon make you a flat-earther, too?  I mean, why wouldn't it?  You can't see a curve, so it can't be there. 

 

Your comment about "collecting art, and not romantic notions" is, of course, an elitist one.  Surely you see this.  And carried within this attitude is one of superiority over others.  And with this comes the denigration---sorry, belittling---of others' ideas, perceptions, sensibilities.  Surely you see this, too.  So you must be deliberately contradicting yourself.  An interesting approach; not really working very well for you, though.  By the way, how did you get involved with collecting "samurai art," anyway?  What was the psychology involved?  Since we know there was no romance connected with it, what, exactly, constituted the appeal?  To collect this kind of object is a remarkably odd choice for someone who won't stoop to "collect romantic notions." 

 

Finally, your plea for comparing apples with apples gets at the very root of the issue, which apparently you don't understand.  The whole point is that there is no Edo kinko to compare to top-grade Momoyama iron (here I do include first-generation Higo, since they were effectively of a Momoyama sensibility, given the various contexts to be considered, especially that concerning Hosokawa Sansai).  The two groups do not have "equal artistic qualities" because they do not have shared aesthetic sensibilities. This is the point.  And seriously, Guido, I don't have to "belittle others' choices to make [mine] look better"; I am simply giving reasons for why I find Edo kinko to be of poor taste (yes, taste), even if the craftsmanship in some of these pieces is exquisite.  But as you would say, if the shoe fits, wear it. 

[Brian]

Our best info comes from vigorous debate.
That is a quote to remember. I hope neither side will be put off debating these points or sharing their opinions, because I think they underestimate the amount of educational value these threads have.
Thanks to all for putting forth your views. There is a lot to be taken from ALL of these posts.
I'll admit to not quite getting the "old iron" point of view in many cases. But then again, posts by Steve and Henry and Rich T back in the day..and others..have made me look far closer at tsuba I would have ignored previously. And I spend time looking at them closely, and think I am getting some sense of at least some of the nuances. Have a few in my collection, and they certainly can grow on you.
So while I continue to love good kinko...I lean towards the subtler ones nowadays...and have learned a ton about why people appreciate the old iron.
Love to read more on this, so please don't let this spiral out of control. Lots more out there have strayed to the grey side over threads like these.

[Jean]

That's in fact is a question of taste as it has been said. I have seen some vey good kinko tsuba (main line goto or other schools) that I find lovely.

 

It is like comparing bananas to pears. Same object, one made by a smith, the other by jeweller.

[Henry Wilson]

 

I think that iron tsuba is like looking at rocks in a river. There is something under the surface to be seen if you Just look. There is texture, layers and a dynamic; a 2D effect that kinko generally don't have. Iron makes me think of the temples in Kyoto such as Ginkaku-ji and the likes. Moss, moisture and earth. The Yanagi book Ford mentions put it all very nice in that I think that they are created with an ease that defines themselves.

 

On the other hand, I feel that most kinko is quite the opposite. They remind me of looking at precious jewels. Glitter and brightness that is designed to dazzle. Nice in itself but not very nourishing in my opinion. Rocks and jewels are both similar but fundamentally evoke different things. The difference could depend on how you see yourself; a lord a serf?

[Curran]

Like Guido, I collect both. I appreciate his time and humor in writing up his thoughts with his thorny thicket tactic [practice your pronunciation on that],

though perhaps not the practical joke Boris claims Guido hatched on me.

 

Pictures being worth a few words, Guido probably did best by showing both old iron and kinko from his collection perspective.

I do not have images of my two old iron choices, so cannot further his example here.

[Tanto54]

Dear Steve,

 

Please be fair.  You say in your post #41 that "I started it" in my post #18, but the fact is that you started denigrating kinko and its proponents (look at posts #13-15).  My first post (#18) was a reaction to the impropriety of those earlier posts. 

 

Steve said I "find it ironic that you can state that "too often when proponents of iron extoll its virtue, they do so by putting down kinko and its proponents instead of simply talking about the values of iron," when it was you who really started this conversation in this direction by making the post you did (#18)." 

 

[Stephen]

no dog in this dust up, i collect low end, its cheaper...LOL

Used to pine Suaka, now its dragons, likely to change again. I do know which house to B n E now when in Nippon.

 

simple collection for a simple man, right Jean

 

[Brian]

Yes..but do you prefer suaka dragons or old iron ones? :rotfl:

[Valric]

Thank you for all the replies! this is a very interesting thread as it goes to the heart of the where appreciation is to be found, which was precisely my question. I now have a far better idea where to look, and while I still don't really get it, I feel that I've got some of the conceptual keys needed for appreciation. That said, my love for kinko isn't going to go away, don't worry! I find the disparaging adjectives on both sides hilarious. Trite, cheesy and parvenu on one side, charcoal plates, iron manholes, emperor's new clothes on the other...

[Alex A]

Interesting thread, personally, I'm drawn to Ko-Kinko manhole covers  

[Stephen]

 

 

Yes..but do you prefer suaka dragons or old iron ones?     

Yes....lol

 

not or , on

 

 

the one that started it all, and cherished because Ford san restored missing jewel 

[Stephen]

 

 

 and while I still don't really get it, 

Chris i don't either and quit trying, ive seen the top of the top collectors just gaga over a tsuba id not even use as a coaster, so nope i don't care, i buy what strikes my fancy, poo poo the the elite tsuba snobs. life is all about what makes you happy. Not what someone else dictates. 

now to get tickets to Japan, checking my burglar tools in baggage. 

[Fred Geyer]

here is a iron juyo with the soft metal one.... so everyone is happy ....quality is quality iron or soft metal

 

Fred

[b.hennick]

This has been an interesting discussion. I would like to take the information and images posted and turn them into an article for the JSSUS Newsletter. I can refer to speakers as A, B, C, etc. as new voices appear and keep the same designation for the same person. I would try to keep to the main ideas and flavour of the discussion. I will remove the parts that are more personal than informative. I am willing to post the results of my efforts here for comments before submitting the report to the Newsletter. If anyone wants to opt out I can leave their contribution out completely. I intend to put the URL of the thread at the top of the report so anyone who wants to read the whole unedited discussion can. 

[Guido]

How about this version, Barry?

 

 

[Guido]

... though perhaps not the practical joke Boris claims Guido hatched on me.

 

It was all his fault, he made me do it! And he better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the NMB!

[Henry Wilson]

What practical joke was that then?

[rkg]

Hey guys,

 

I'm spending too much time shooting stuff - I'm always late to the party...

 

First up, uchigatana koshirae - this is one of the coolest ones I've ever seen in hand:

 

 

Next, on this whole kinko vs iron vs pre-edo vs edo vs... thing...  Reading this it seems like maybe it would be best to take a breath,and talk about art in general...

 

Art affects people in many ways - sometimes its visceral (the dreaded "I don't know what it is, but I like it" thing), or it already within your realm of experience (shiny objects, things with recognizable subjects, you're seen something similar before, etc) but a surprising amount of it has to do with "being in on it" - A running joke in art circles these days is that the creatives are selling their artists' statements about their work rather than their work itself (or are cashing in on their fame (I personally see no other rational explanation for paying what people do for a lot of Hirst's work, for example - how much did that shark in formaldehyde go for again?) or are speculating, or.. - but I digress).

 

I'd posit that a lot of old iron work is in this latter category - if you're not "read in" on where the artist was coming from (Buddhism, tea culture, the bushi ethic, the times it was made in, perhaps its history, the wabi-sabi aesthetic, etc) or happen to like iron/sculpture, the work probably isn't going to do much for you - and even in you're "in on the joke", it still might not - that's the nature of art - your reaction to it is kind of personal...

 

Back to work,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

EDIT:  Oops - I see Fred already posted an image of this piece.  my bad...