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Modern Nihonto Or Fake?


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#1 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 11:50 PM

It arrived this morning, it is suppose to be a Nosyudo shinken. I bought it used in "excellent condition". There are a couple very small knicks on the cutting edge and you can tell it was used on tameshingi but it is overall it's acceptable.

I thought the shipping box was empty because it was incredibly light. Upon unboxing I discovered one of the lightest most well balanced blades I ever held. It has a 30in nagasa which is perfect for my sasquach size frame. I have a number of high end Paul Chen swords, but nothing comes close to the feel is this one. I think the deep bo hi reduce weight considerably. It has amazing balance and feel.

I took some close up shot of the hada and hamon. It appears to be tamahagane, but I will leave that to more informed members. Any assistance would be much appreciated.

I took it apart which was very easy compared to my Chinese cutters. It went back together rock solid with just a couple taps on the fuchi. It is clear the nakago was properly fitted to the tsuka. The ito possesses very tight wrapping with beautiful knots.

The saya is very light and narrow. It has zero blade rattle when shaken or tapped on the side. There are Japanese characters in pencil on the inside of the saya.

There is a little bit of discoloration, almost as if oiled dried on it and stained the blade. It's not full polish, maybe a step above tameshigiri polish especially in the deep wide bo hi. There is also tiny rust color dots near the cutting edge about and inch long.

I know it's not an antique. Those are one the way. Would a quality ushiko works? Should I just leave it alone and keep it oiled?

Sorry to ramble on, I am just hoping it's the real deal. Zooming in one the photos helps with the image. I couldn't get my phone to do a good macro shot. I apologize if I posted in the wrong section. Here are the pics...

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Erick L. AF&AM

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#2 SAS

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 11:59 PM

It appears to be as described, a gendaito for martial arts. What did you pay? Keep the blade oiled but not too heavily. Lots of threads on maintenance on NMB.


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#3 mywei

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:05 AM

gendaito, not fake at all
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#4 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:11 AM

I paid $2000 usd. Did I get taken? I don't think I will cut with it. I have no idea what they go for. The antique nihonto seem to be easier to find information on. I wish I could read Japanese because Nosyudo's website looks to have a ton of info.

Big sigh of relief here guys. Thanks for easing my fears.
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Erick L. AF&AM

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#5 Vermithrax16

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:25 AM

Looks like hada to me from the pictures, think you are good. 


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#6 Katsujinken

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:30 AM

$2000 is not bad at all for a traditionally made shinsakuto.

Don't let the weight throw you. Lots of production shinken are insanely heavy. That's not to say there aren't also heavy shinsakuto, but if they are heavy the balance is usually much, much better.
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#7 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:49 AM

Erick, the blade has definitely been used. Take a close look at where the ito passes over itself, & you can see the signs of wear. And the ito diamonds are really supposed to be neat, clean...& the same size. Should be a good blade for iaido.

 

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#8 BulletSprinkler

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 01:17 AM

Modern, oil quenched iato sword. 2K is about what its worth.


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#9 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 01:41 AM

Pics of the nakago? It's impossible to say whether a sword is made with or without tamahagane, just if it appears to have been made traditionally or not. Which this appears to have been.

Bullet sprinkler - what causes you to say oil quenched?
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#10 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 02:10 AM

Here are some pics of the nakago and a link to Nosyudo shinken webpage. I can't make heads or tails of the characters but someone might be able to read if it's water or oil quenched.

http://nosyudo.jp/shinken/

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Erick L. AF&AM

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#11 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 02:16 AM

Noshu Kanesada Saku. Likely not Japanese - at least legally - since its post war without a date. Smells like a sword similar to Kimonjo. Still made what appears traditionally made, but not likely "Nihonto", more like "Chinato" ;-)
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#12 Greg F

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 02:50 AM

Hi Erick any kissaki pics?

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#13 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:01 AM

Visit the website Nosyudo. They are definitely made in Japan. I guess some practioners visit Japan on a regular basis and bring these back as personal items.

I read were Nosyudo was associated with a distributed here in the US but a legal battle took place... don't know the specifics.

Nosyudo is a well know sword maker in Seki Japan. I am almost positive it is truely a Japanese made blade.

They are well known for their quality. Swordforum International has nothing but good things to say.
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Erick L. AF&AM

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#14 Vermithrax16

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:28 AM

Visit the website Nosyudo. They are definitely made in Japan. I guess some practioners visit Japan on a regular basis and bring these back as personal items.

I read were Nosyudo was associated with a distributed here in the US but a legal battle took place... don't know the specifics.

Nosyudo is a well know sword maker in Seki Japan. I am almost positive it is truely a Japanese made blade.

They are well known for their quality. Swordforum International has nothing but good things to say.

Erick, my fellow Bawstonian, all anyone said on this thread is that the sword is a hand made sword but that it's providence is hard to tell. Is it Nosyudo made? Maybe. I don't know much about shinken/gendaito swords (I don't know much about antiques to be fair) but just from the nakago pics and the Nosyudo site it's hard to say it's made by that forge. 

 

If you got a live hand made blade, even from China, with solid fittings that can cut for $2000 that's not a bad place to be. 


Jeremiah L.

 

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#15 BulletSprinkler

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:29 AM

Pics of the nakago? It's impossible to say whether a sword is made with or without tamahagane, just if it appears to have been made traditionally or not. Which this appears to have been.

Bullet sprinkler - what causes you to say oil quenched?

 

lack of much activity in the hamon.


Jay


#16 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 04:00 AM

Visit the website Nosyudo. They are definitely made in Japan. I guess some practioners visit Japan on a regular basis and bring these back as personal items.

I read were Nosyudo was associated with a distributed here in the US but a legal battle took place... don't know the specifics.

Nosyudo is a well know sword maker in Seki Japan. I am almost positive it is truely a Japanese made blade.

They are well known for their quality. Swordforum International has nothing but good things to say.


I'm not speaking to their cutting ability, how well practitioners like them, or if Nosyu are made in Japan - obviously they are. I am speaking to the law. Since swords were allowed to be produced in 1953, it has been the Law that all swords produced must have a maker and a date. No ifs ands or buts. This is for iai blades as well as art swords - ALL swords made in Japan require this. So your sword is one of two things.

1. An illegally made and exported sword - not terribly likely
2. A sword created to represent a Japanese sword elsewhere - far more likely.

Then look at the nakago jiri, the mei, the yasurime in comparison to other Nihonto, including nosyudo swords. It should become evident why the more likely option is the right one. The work in the blade itself is actually pretty good. Not oil tempered (sorry bullet sprinkler), as it is a ko-nie deki hamon, nice tight ko-itame hada, and full koshirae. It's a nice Iai sword, just not a Japanese one. There are far worse things.
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#17 Vermithrax16

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 04:05 AM

I'm not speaking to their cutting ability, how well practitioners like them, or if Nosyu are made in Japan - obviously they are. I am speaking to the law. Since swords were allowed to be produced in 1953, it has been the Law that all swords produced must have a maker and a date. No ifs ands or buts. This is for iai blades as well as art swords - ALL swords made in Japan require this. So your sword is one of two things.

1. An illegally made and exported sword - not terribly likely
2. A sword created to represent a Japanese sword elsewhere - far more likely.

Then look at the nakago jiri, the mei, the yasurime in comparison to other Nihonto, including nosyudo swords. It should become evident why the more likely option is the right one. The work in the blade itself is actually pretty good. Not oil tempered (sorry bullet sprinkler), as it is a ko-nie deki hamon, nice tight ko-itame hada, and full koshirae. It's a nice Iai sword, just not a Japanese one. There are far worse things.

What I tried to say, but Joe does it way better than me!


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#18 SAS

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 10:01 AM

Personally if i had questions about a sword's provenance, i would contact the maker.....that should end any doubt.


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#19 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 10:08 AM

Where did you buy this sword? *EDIT* Just saw in your other thread that you got this from Pawn shop. *EDIT* Did the seller say he purchased this from Japan? As Nosyudo Kanesada could just be seen as misreading 濃州兼定 - Nōshū Kanesada

 

My guess is it was made by Kaneie (the Chinese forge [not Japanese smith named Kaneie] which is gone off the map again due to again having business issues). They have produced some of the best Chinese made Japanese swords but they seem to have lots of business issues. Over the years they have supplied many companies around the world sharp Shinken for iai practice. They have imported the swords at least to UK, Germany, Netherlands and I think to USA too on several occasions.

 

As you mention the description in other thread as Nosyudo Kanesada Forged Steel Shinken Katana, forged steel shinken is something that could be used to describe the Chinese made production swords, and forged opposed to folded means that the steel is unfolded. Your sword looks to have hada but as crazy as it sounds I have owned a forged shinken that was made by Kaneie (Sold by Nine Circles as Tameshigiri Shinken) and the final treatment they gave made the sword have hada like pattern even though the sword was non-folded monosteel. I will attach few pics of the Kaneie I used to have to show similarity in mei & bit of the surface treatment. I sold this many years ago and pics are bad. :(

 

Nosyudo was doing business with Swordstore in the US until the early-mid 2000's if I remember correctly. Then some legal issues arose and their business deal stopped. I don't remember the details well as it's so long ago and back then young me was saving and drooling in the cheap sword market. Swordstore still sells their sharp steel iaito 6006 and 7007. I don't think these steel shinkens were ever supplied by Nosyudo, I think Nosyudo supplied them high quality Japanese made zinc-alloy iaito, and the possibility to order a real Japanese sword from Japan. I am not sure who made/makes the steel iaito lineup. That is a tricky thing as many companies offer steel shinken and they are silent about the origin of them (most likely due to business reasons). My own belief is that Kaneie supplied swords for many and Huanuo might have supplied some too as there are not too many high quality forges in China. Hard to know as the expensive steel shinken have never been popular in Finland so really hard to judge as you can't see them in hand.

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#20 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:18 PM

I will send pictures to Nosyudo.jp and see what they say. You guys are probably right. The seller on the west coast took it to a katana shop in San Diego. According to the it is a true Nosyudo... whether they had their blades made by a good Chinese forge will hopefully be answered soon. I contacted the seller last night who gave me the number of the sword shop who gave him the info. I guess it's a place called Miramar aikido and iaido

I will also post pics of the kissaki when I get out of work. The seller is also selling high end Chinese swords as well. He lists these as Chinese made, but this one specifically said Japan forged, but I think it might just be simple a case of simple ignorance (much like what I am going through). I love the sword either way. It was well worth the price of admission. I use my swords on a regular basis so this one will make a great addition. It really needs to be held and swung to fully appreciate it. My other Paul Chen cutters don't compare although the Paul Chen Lion Dog can cut through an Osmobile! It's a beast.

Let's see what the maker has to say. I am fimiliar with Kaneie sword, some can still be found for sale. They are highly regarded and sought after. KOA had a few for sale not to long ago. I have heard the owner of Nosyudo is suppose to be a great guy to all who visit his forge. Hopefully they get back to me. Thanks for all the help guys.😁
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#21 jeremy

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 12:47 PM

I owned a "steel iaito" from swordstore.com back in 2002 and 2003, your sword reminds me of it. Lack of hataraki etc and gunome hamon. Very good for iai and cutting. If it is a nosyudo/swordstore.com sword then the blade will have been forged in China and koshirae from Japan.
Cheers
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#22 Greg F

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 01:26 PM

Hi Erick i agree with Jussi that this is most likely a Kaneie blade. In my opinion they are one of the 2 best chinese made shinken the other being simon lee katana. All the best.

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#23 Brian

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 02:58 PM

Bear closely in mind what Joe said about a date. That seems a non-negotiable requirement.


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#24 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 04:29 PM

You guys are probably right. I haven't heard back from Nosyudo yet, but it's probably a Chinese tamahagane blade with the tsuka, fittings, habaki, and final finish done in Japan.

The date required nakago pretty much some it up by law. The Nosyudo website shows the the tsuka being hand shaped and fitted, the habaki being made and fitted, ito being wrapped, and final blade polishing being done in Japan. It's probably a hybrid to keep cost down and get by the strict laws.
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#25 Brian

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 04:33 PM

Make no mistake...if it is a Chinese blade, then it has never been in Japan. Not for fitting or koshirae. The sword would be illegal in Japan, can't be shipped there even for work. I doubt this came from Nosyudo. If it is a live blade, it would have had to have been registered in Japan with torokusho. What proof do you have that it was ever shipped from there? The quality of these from China is good anyways.


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#26 NihontoNewbie

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 06:46 PM

EDIT*** I think I might have found where the confusion lies. I guess Nosyuiaido made shinken which might be getting mixed up with Nosyudo. It was sold to me as a Nosyudo but I was ignorant at the time as well as the seller. I think it was an honest mistake. Still wondering why a higher end Chinese sword maker would have Japanese characters in pencil on the inside of the saya mouth. I think they are reference marks when the two saya halfs were joined. Could still be a Kaneie too.

Nosyiaido is headquartered in Japan but has Chinese manufacturing plants. The fittings are Japanese. Here is a link from E-budo

http://www.e-budo.co...Copy-Cat-Blades
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#27 w.y.chan

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 08:15 PM

I'm not speaking to their cutting ability, how well practitioners like them, or if Nosyu are made in Japan - obviously they are. I am speaking to the law. Since swords were allowed to be produced in 1953, it has been the Law that all swords produced must have a maker and a date. No ifs ands or buts. This is for iai blades as well as art swords - ALL swords made in Japan require this. So your sword is one of two things.

1. An illegally made and exported sword - not terribly likely
2. A sword created to represent a Japanese sword elsewhere - far more likely.

Then look at the nakago jiri, the mei, the yasurime in comparison to other Nihonto, including nosyudo swords. It should become evident why the more likely option is the right one. The work in the blade itself is actually pretty good. Not oil tempered (sorry bullet sprinkler), as it is a ko-nie deki hamon, nice tight ko-itame hada, and full koshirae. It's a nice Iai sword, just not a Japanese one. There are far worse things.

 

 

How do you explain this one?

 

post-1462-14196881663307.jpg

 

 

and this one?

 

http://kendounet.see.../357971670.html

2009_1210_01.jpg

2009_1210_02.jpg

 

Wah



#28 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 09:44 PM

Wah,

I am not sure why, but you seem to enjoy trying to challenge many things that I say. Any how, I hope it's fun for you.  The first sword appears to be a shinsakuto daito and the tanto appears to be an earlier utsushi of the masamune hocho.  The kicho papers say that it is attributed to Okimasa - but as you know, Kicho papers are no longer valid.  How do I explain this?  While, I am sure your educated enough in the process that whether a sword gets a registration card is all based on the registration boards knowledge and experience in nihonto.  

 

Can you - without a fraction of a doubt - say that either of these swords were made post 1953?  My guess would be that the tanto is pre 1953 and the daito is post.  But do I know this for a fact from a handful of pics?  No.  And let's be honest, neither do you!  So doesn't it stand to reason that the individual who regestered these two examples or many others made a mistake?  Sure!  I have seen showa stamped swords that received origami.  Does this mean that it is traditionally made?  No.  Could the shinsa panel have made a mistake?  Yes.  But all of this you already know.  

 

Whether a shinsa panel or a registration board, the process is ran by people and people make mistakes.

 

It doesn't change the fact that swords made after the ban was lifted in 1953 require a date and signature to be registered.  But again, you already know this.  But you found a couple examples and want to challenge me.  I don't care if you want to believe these were illegally made and falsely registered pieces.  What ever you want to believe is just fine with me Wah.  I am not trying to put myself out there as some subject matter expert, just stating the law in Japan.  Now that I have responded, excuse me, I have a high-horse to go jump back on.


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#29 w.y.chan

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 10:22 PM

Joe, its not a challenge so I don't understand why you get all defensive about it. I would ask the exact same question if it had been anyone else who claim to have said what you have.

These 2 blades have previously been referenced by Chris B on this board so its worth bringing it up.

 

The sword is an Ota Chikahide sold by a Japanese dealer who put the date to be around 1957 if I remember correctly, it is owned by a forum member. The tanto is postwar.

 

Wah



#30 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 11:28 PM

Okay. Maybe I read too much into your response. Sorry about that.

Either way, my post is correct. A mumei tanto and an undated daito were registered. The registration board would've deemed them to be pre-1953 or they would've been illegal. Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong. Maybe the person requesting to register them had some sway and the board didn't want to mark them as illegal and confiscate them. Maybe a dozen other things. The law is the law, the boards are human, humans make mistakes.

My opinion is that tanto is not post-war and it would be interesting to see what the NBTHK would do for attribution now. Could be Okimasa, could be someone else.




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