Bargain Tokubetsu Juyo?

[Gakusee]

https://www.aoijapan.com/katanamumei-unju

 

For discussion

 

Not my cup of tea but a respectable school at a bargain basement starting price for that level? Curious to see where it ends. The starting price, should in "game theory" be his minimum acceptance level

[paulb]

bit concerned by:

"This blade quality is on a level with that of the NBTHK Juyo blade"

 

when the blade is supposed to have Tokubetsu Juyo papers.

I am wondering I the description confused or in error.

Staring price for a Tokubetsu Juyo should be considerably higher.

[Ray Singer]

According to what I see there, it appears to only references Juyo Token - 62nd session.

[mywei]

I wish lol at that price!It has been mistranslated as TokuJu

 

the notification at the bottom states that it has been accepted for the 62nd Juyo

 

(重要刀剣等に指定することに決定いたしました)

[Bugyotsuji]

Well the Japanese itself is a little difficult for me, and their (Aoi's) English is never perfect, but seems to be saying that compared to (other) Juyo blades (in general) it cannot be faulted, particularly the jigane and hamon hold their own at this level.

重要刀剣に比較しても何ら遜色の無い見事な地金と刃紋です。

[Bugyotsuji]

Matt, that is an NBTHK Pass certificate at the bottom.

[mywei]

Matt, that is an NBTHK Pass certificate at the bottom.

I agree Piers, but I think its for Juyo only, not Tokubetsu Juyo

[Jussi Ekholm]

With Aoi it is best to check the Japanese page if in doubt: https://www.aoijapan.jp/%e5%88%80%ef%bc%9a%e7%84%a1%e9%8a%98-%e9%9b%b2%e9%87%8d

 

I didn't visit Aoi (so I can't say anything about them) but I visited many good sword shops in Tokyo. And I understand now it is always best to check the Japanese page when in doubt about description.

[Bugyotsuji]

You are right. The Japanese page does not mention Tokubetsu as far as I can see, but maybe I am missing something.

Their English page says Tokubetsu. Must be a clerical error.

 

PS Agreed about Aoi.

[Jean]

AOI Art comment just says that this blade is upto NBTHK juyo quality standards. This blade is not Tokuju. It is far from Tokuju level quality.

 

I have seen better Juyo blades from this smith

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's almost as if the guys trying to sell it or something

[Katsujinken]

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for messing up the papers like this. It's not a translation issue. The paper titles are transliterated and never change. A teenager could ensure this kind of thing never happens.

 

Yes, final responsibility rests with the buyer (and fortunately we have great resources like the NMB), but at what point will people decide enough is enough with Aoi?

[paulb]

I think we have to be careful before jumping to conclusions. To repeat yet again my favourite saying "do not attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity."

I have witnessed on a number of occassions mis-translatiopn from other Japanese sites not least the NBTHK in their trahnslations of kantei descriptions. In the past year there have been a number of examples of what appear to be very basic, but very important errors.

 It is a far from easy task to translate terminology accurately and consistently. If you add to this the huge increase in turnover Aoi have experienced in recent years errors are almost inevitable.

That doesn't make it right it is something to be aware of and if identified inform Aoi Art directly.

Tsuruta san was the first Japanese dealer I bought from many years ago (I think maybe 15 or 20). 

I know others have had issues with pieces but my own experience has only been positive and I have found Tsuruta san helpful and charming.

Like all of us he is getting older and as said I think the volume he is handling is the problem. The issue isn't that mistakes occur it is now they are resolved hat counts.

[christianmalterre]

if it hadn´t ben tripottet....( what shall this Kissaki represent i honestly do ask myself ).....i still would be cautious....

 

hmmmh????

 

( agree with an former post-commentaire here.....me, too....i have seen it better...+ cheaper if we do calculate additional occuring fees on the lot)

 

Christian

[Katsujinken]

Right, I definitely do not think there is any malice or purposeful misrepresentation on Aoi's part. And while I can understand translation issues related to the vagaries and idiosyncrasies of kantei, the titles of the papers should be correct because there are only four possibilities for foreign buyers. That is a mistake that should never happen and is avoidable 100% of the time.

 

Aoi either cares enough to prevent it or they don't. We're talking about tens of thousands of dollars, after all.

[paulb]

Michael 

I would agree with you except I have seen very basic errors appear i.e mixing up masame and mokume bo-utsuri and midare utsuri. I dont think it is mistranslation so much as carelessness 

[Gakusee]

From what we have seen lately, we should be checking and trying to translate the Japanese versions of the websites as well, and carefully look at the certificates, as too many of these errors have crept in.

 

I should indeed have queried the text about it being at a similar level of NBTHK Juyo blades (which TJ would exceed, so logically the blade must have been below that level - probably at TH). Probably the description or record of the blade was done prior to the Juyo paper, when it was still TH, and then whoever posted it did not update the existing text properly:

- so TH probably became TJ because they knew it became Juyo but forgot to delete "tokubetsu"

- also the statement or implication that it was good enough to be Juyo was not deleted (even though it had already become Juyo)

 

We apparently need to turn into careful analysers and perusers and not rely on descriptions anymore.

 

For what it is worth, I have had mixed experiences with Aoi - they have sold me good blades, and have been prompt to respond, but they have also not been particularly upfront with all details surrounding sales in which I was interested/was bidding on.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well I am not sure about the English level of the staff at Aoi in general as I didn't visit them but in overall the regular staff at sword shops I visited spoke very little English. And of course as my Japanese is only at very basic level the communication was often quite difficult. And I didn't want to bother them too much as I was way out of my league. Just enjoying drooling some top tier stuff that I can never afford.

 

I am not sure who does the English descriptions/translations to some of the sword shops and if he/she might not in some cases even be a sword person so some errors could easily happen during the translation. When you check various sites they might sometimes have some minor mistakes (wrong era, wrong details etc.). I often don't bother too much about these as I am not buying anything. But if buying then it is important to research well.

 

Also the session numbers are good indicator. I think the last Tokuju session was 24 in 2016.

[Darcy]

"Tokubetsu Juyo" is a Japanese phrase and getting it wrong from the source kanji is a transliteration error that should have little to do with English speaking ability. It is everything about them doing this stuff fast and loose, and is habitual. There is no long winded explanation for it other than "bone headed mistake".

 

What bothers me is that people extrapolate from these things. Already I have an email from a collector stating major concern about the entire sword market based on the price of this "Tokubetsu Juyo" sword.

 

When they do this, because so many eyeballs are on the site, they cause a lot of damage via people who won't tune in but take it at face value. Even though it is documented time and again on this website in discussions.

 

Anyway, Unji and Unju are between 2nd and 3rd tier makers and not anything anyone should be mentally associating by default with Tokuju anyway, unless signed and in great condition. If someone leaps out to buy their Tokuju bargain or leaps out to sell their entire collection because the sky is falling, probably they should study more before doing anything with money.

 

Jean and others hit the nail on the head.

 

Also people are under the impression that Tsuruta san is making these listings and they are discussing things with him, and they are not. They are dealing with his staff. When his staff are making multiple listings per day, every day, on an ongoing basis, and aiming for volume, this problem is going to happen. Over and over again.

 

Edit: the theory above that it had something to do with Tokubetsu Hozon is probably right, as the old photos show no sayagaki and the new ones do, sayagaki done after Juyo and probably they had listed it as Tokubetsu Hozon in the past. The blade itself is decent and I actually like it. It's still a bone headed mistake.

 

Edit again: "Mr. Tabobe" sayagaki... just keep that in mind when you read these descriptions. I'm not immune to mistakes and typos either, but I will admit I feel dumb when I find them and I try not to screw up to this level.

[Bugyotsuji]

Sticky warning!

 

Can I just add a clarification? Members of NMB have in the past emailed me expressing their plan to visit Tokyo and particularly Aoi Art, and asking if I would recommend them. How should I reply? Although I have met Tsuruta San once, I do not live in Tokyo and I have never been to their shop. They have wide and generally positive exposure in the West, I agree. I keep my ears open and I hear things here and there, but with no first-hand experience what should I say? Give a list of rumours from competing dealers? The only direct impressions are what I get from their website, same as everyone.

 

Just sayin'....

[estcrh]

Sticky warning!

 

Can I just add a clarification? Members of NMB have in the past emailed me expressing their plan to visit Tokyo and particularly Aoi Art, and asking if I would recommend them. How should I reply? Although I have met Tsuruta San once, I do not live in Tokyo and I have never been to their shop. They have wide and generally positive exposure in the West, I agree. I keep my ears open and I hear things here and there, but with no first-hand experience what should I say? Give a list of rumours from competing dealers? The only direct impressions are what I get from their website, same as everyone.

 

Just sayin'....

Piers,some of their deceptive (to me) recent armor sales are not a good sign, in the past I would have had no problem referring people to them, and I have, but if they can not be completely honest, or if their ability to accurately describe their products is beyond their knowledge then I would at least tell people to be extremely cautious. Once trust is lost it is hard to win back, maybe the current financial situation has something to do with this.

[Bugyotsuji]

Caveat Emptor rules. We have to keep our ears and eyes open, stay on our toes, constantly do the homework, and just occasionally suck it up when stuff slips through. I wish there was someone we could trust 100%...

[Ted Tenold]

Sticky warning!

 

Can I just add a clarification? Members of NMB have in the past emailed me expressing their plan to visit Tokyo and particularly Aoi Art, and asking if I would recommend them. How should I reply? 

 

Consult your manual from the Ministry of Silly Walks before going there.  Side stepping, high leg lifts, over-striding hops, and other strange leg movements will be required to negotiate the stacks of random stuff that remind one of a hoarder house;  fascinating and kind of terrifying at the same time.   I have not seen Tsuruta san in a couple of years, but he was always a pleasantly cheerful man.  Based on the elements of recent listings, I wonder how much actual personal interaction he's having with his staff these days.   

[Jussi Ekholm]

This is taken from Aoi Art website for those wanting to visit them. I skipped Aoi as I was not intending to buy anything and didn't want to bother them bringing out swords for me as I was not a potential buyer.

⬛︎BEFORE VISITING⬛︎

Please email us the date and the order number of the item you want to see, we can show you up to 3 items on our website.

The shop is too small to accommodate many customers and deal with sudden visit.

[Jean]

One has to do is homework. To think only 5 seconds that this blade could be tokuju is ....let's say mildly unbelievable and that it could be priced at 3,2 M¥, well some still believe in Santa Claus...

 

You have two kinds of swords which can reach Juyo and above.

 

The first one deals with swords which have a very important historical background almost independently from their (health) condition, but now nobody can be sure of anything, juyo shinsa is unpredictable.

 

The second one (look at juyo shinsa criteria) deals of good smiths and of quality blades. This blade is undoubtedly a good one but very far from being a top one, as I say I have seen a lot of better juyo by this smith and I was a bit surprised it was Juyo. Compare it to the Kanenaga sword that has been discussed and which is only TH...

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2017/17046-3.jpg

 

 

Now the school, Unrui school is an hybrid school. A mix of Yamashiro/Bizen, all the more difficult to reach Tokuju, it will have to be signed/ubu like these ones. Some have reached high levels as Juyo bunkazai or Kokuho (all ubu and signed)

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/unji.htm

http://www.sho-shin.com/unjo.htm

 

Lesson one: focuss on quality then decide what kind of papers it could have and never take for granted what is written on dealers' site

[Jean]

The sword has disappeared from the site ..

[Darcy]

When they say very small (the shop) it is literally too small for you and a friend to show up and stand in. There are two to three clerks working on processing stuff for the website. But there is no room to take a sword out for more than one person without getting stabby. 

[Shugyosha]

Is Aoi still in Ginza? I thought I read that he was moving to a new property...

[Jean]

In fact, Nihonto is like Religion.

 

In terms of quality/history, the best of the best is god (I remember a Hosokawa tokuju blade. It was brand new, no more than 3 polishes, as if released from the forge yesterday but not God), then it comes to his disciples (first lineage, top blades), saijo saku smiths with blades at an inch of god's blade, then second lineage, almost as good as the first lineage but lacking something, jo-jo saku smiths, then jo saku smiths and so on.

 

Thus you could have for a classification according quality : Masamune, then Norishige, and then Tametsugu, just a question of quality or "lack" of quality.

 

That's why it is interesting to see as many fantastic blades as possible. It is the only way to understand quality and shades of quality, it is the rating system: Kokuho, juyo Bunkazaï... or Tokuju, juyo, TH...

 

See as many top blades when going to a Nihonto show, learn to detect quality and what makes quality in blades.

[Darcy]

Is Aoi still in Ginza? I thought I read that he was moving to a new property...

 

 

If they were ever in Ginza it was before my time. They have a small shop near the old NBTHK... with the NBTHK moving, maybe they intend on moving too.