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Japanese Boxes, We Like?


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#31 kusunokimasahige

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:12 PM

Love that Jinbaori box !

GORGEOUS !

Do you have a photo of the Jinbaori too for us ?


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#32 estcrh

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:22 PM

Love that Jinbaori box !

GORGEOUS !

Do you have a photo of the Jinbaori too for us ?

Yes, how do we really know there is a jinbaori inside??? :)



#33 estcrh

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 12:02 AM

The hitsu / bitsu brought up by John, no mention of this one having six legs despite the description stating that these were four legged boxes, no mention of their use in storing armor either (yoroi hitsu / bitsu)???

 

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#34 Shogun8

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 03:58 AM

Yes, how do we really know there is a jinbaori inside??? :)

You don't! :)


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#35 Shogun8

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 04:04 AM

The hitsu / bitsu brought up by John, no mention of this one having six legs despite the description stating that these were four legged boxes, no mention of their use in storing armor either (yoroi hitsu / bitsu)???

 

bd79dbc87395b7dc47821f7faa7cc367.jpg

 

Most examples of karabitsu have six legs and they were originally used to hold the so-called "Great Armours" - yoroi. If you look at images of these yoroi displayed, many of them are perched atop these karabitsu.

 

Perhaps this particular example did not house an armour?


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#36 estcrh

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 04:35 AM

Most examples of karabitsu have six legs and they were originally used to hold the so-called "Great Armours" - yoroi. If you look at images of these yoroi displayed, many of them are perched atop these karabitsu.

 

Perhaps this particular example did not house an armour?

The Met says they are four legged and no mention of armor storage or that this particular example has six legs, the Met's descriptions have been known to be wrong but not mentioning these as at least sometimes being for armor storage is really an oversight.



#37 Bugyotsuji

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 05:43 AM

Someone cannot count legs!  :laughing:  The museum's description does not seem to be 100% accurate, especially as I have often seen these described as upmarket armour boxes, especially for O-yoroi.

 

A flat-bottomed box left for years on a wooden or tatami mat surface during the rainy season can develop mold or invite woodworm. Lacquered though, and on capped legs, they become almost impermeable sealed containers. :clap: A lovely box indeed for a period of political stability.

 

Their drawback becomes apparent during transportation. They do not stack comfortably at all, and broken legs can soon appear. It could be that the constant struggles for supremacy between the clans during the Muromachi period began to favour stackable Yoroibitsu, ie flat-sided boxes with foldable metal carry handles, easy to carry from a shoulder pole or to manoeuvre onto carrying carts.


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#38 Shogun8

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 03:25 PM

Sounds plausible, Piers!


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#39 estcrh

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 04:36 PM

These round (usually) "hokai" containers are interesting, and good for storing jingasa and hats in general. A few years ago there were a lot of antique examples for sale in Japan, now I do not see them very often. I have read many different uses for them including this one ("containers (kaibitsu) used for the kaiawase game. The matching of painted shells symbolizes faithfulness in marriage. A shell game set belonged often to the trousseau of a bride.")

 

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#40 Bugyotsuji

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 05:00 PM

Where to start in that photo?

Hokai have either three or four legs, and were primarily used for keeping grain rice inside, I have heard. I have two very similar to yours there.

There is a somewhat similar round container called a Kubibitsu, for placing the head of someone you have 'captured' on the battlefield. It has a sort of inner bucket with two geta slats to stand on; the external lacquered box has a domed top. Every castle would have at least one of these as a spare. Once used they were destroyed, so there are said to be very few extant.
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#41 kusunokimasahige

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 05:22 PM

Try storing a Jingasa in that round Hokai.

Hahahahaha ;)


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#42 estcrh

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 06:12 PM

Try storing a Jingasa in that round Hokai.

Hahahahaha ;)

I have jingasa stored in one of my hokai, the bagu-jingasa among others were not very wide.

 

a87c37dbb9181fe05f13d5bcce920d33.jpg



#43 estcrh

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:21 PM

There is a somewhat similar round container called a Kubibitsu, for placing the head of someone you have 'captured' on the battlefield. It has a sort of inner bucket with two geta slats to stand on; the external lacquered box has a domed top. Every castle would have at least one of these as a spare. Once used they were destroyed, so there are said to be very few extant.

Pier, I have seen  them being called "kubi-oke", and yes very rare.
 
Kubi-oke (head bucket), from the "Rock Hill Herald", early 1900s.
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This is my kubi-oke, I have no idea if it is authentic, I have never seen another one like it.
c7382a565c2c7ae135c4be6c5d62ff41.jpg

Tsukudo shrine kubi-oke,
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#44 Bugyotsuji

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 01:44 AM

Yes, kubi-oke sounds right for the immediate inner bucket, but it is possible that the outer container for someone of higher status was called a kubibitsu. Needing to double-check this. Gruesome stuff.

Kubi-oke, the functional head-bucket, (like Karaoke, empty bucket) is associated with watery places like the bathroom, which is why they normally have two horizontal legs underneath to help airflow dry any leakage roundabout.
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#45 kusunokimasahige

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:43 AM

Ah yes ! The small jingasa should indeed fit in the hokai :)

That kubi-oke looks really creepy ! But, would be great to make one for re-enactment purposes.
Look in the bucket if you dare......

You could always test it with Luminol and blacklight estcrh to see if those stains are actually blood.

About that clipping of Taira no Masakado's head-bucket.

I now know why he is especially adament in his hauntings.of present day Tokyo.

http://mysteriousuni...of-the-samurai/
 


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#46 Guido Schiller

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:43 AM

Karaoke, empty bucket

 

That's what people always call me when I'm singing karaoke ...  :rofl:



#47 kusunokimasahige

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:51 AM

Hahahaha brilliant Guido !!

:laughing: :rotfl: :thumbsup:


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#48 estcrh

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:18 AM

Ah yes ! The small jingasa should indeed fit in the hokai :)

That kubi-oke looks really creepy ! But, would be great to make one for re-enactment purposes.
Look in the bucket if you dare......

You could always test it with Luminol and blacklight estcrh to see if those stains are actually blood.

About that clipping of Taira no Masakado's head-bucket.

I now know why he is especially adament in his hauntings.of present day Tokyo.

http://mysteriousuni...of-the-samurai/

Luminol...humm, after over 100 years, wonder if it would work?  Anyway, they really needed those head buckets as beheading was a favorite punishment...after the torture that is.

 

Hidashida Sadakata after his execution at the Awadaguchi execution grounds outside of Kyoto, he was beheaded and his head was put on public display (sarashikubi) for his involvement in the attack on the delegation of the British Consul-General in Japan (Sir Harry Smith Parkes) to the Meiji Emperor, February 1868.

 

a1cc37be46f420babed9035097e09693.jpg



#49 estcrh

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:29 AM

This is for John, wafuku-bako, not nearly as interesting as his jinbaori-bako, but the three items inside are very interesting, and rarely seen. Woven strips of bamboo?...which were then lacquered, the writing on top is mostly missing, there is a tag which was attached to one of the tie down rings when I got it, I do not know if the present contents were meant to go in it or not.

 

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#50 Jean

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:33 AM

Guido wrote "That's what people always call me when I'm singing karaoke ... :rofl:"

So true Guido, I have still that video taken during a yakatabune event 5 years ago. If you want, I can always post it so that members can judge... :rofl:
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#51 Valric

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 01:31 PM

Fantastic thread! I need a head bucket for the living room  :laughing:

 

I must just convince the wife... 

 

On another note, something that strikes you immediately in Japan is the sheer obsession they have with wrapping things properly. I've had two large antique piece of Japanese furniture shipped to my country, and the company built a box out of massive wood for each. Not counting the five layers of covering inside and outside...It took me a day to clear the package. Unbelievable. In Europe you're lucky if they add a sheet of Styrofoam inside cardboard. 


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#52 estcrh

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:09 PM

On another note, something that strikes you immediately in Japan is the sheer obsession they have with wrapping things properly. I've had two large antique piece of Japanese furniture shipped to my country, and the company built a box out of massive wood for each. Not counting the five layers of covering inside and outside...It took me a day to clear the package. Unbelievable. In Europe you're lucky if they add a sheet of Styrofoam inside cardboard.

How many countries covered their wood boxes with a leather cover?

c610e43feab4495e718d3164eb32e854.jpg
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#53 Shogun8

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:16 PM

This is for John, wafuku-bako, not nearly as interesting as his jinbaori-bako, but the three items inside are very interesting, and rarely seen.

 

Now you're teasing me, Eric!


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#54 Shogun8

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 02:49 PM

On another note, something that strikes you immediately in Japan is the sheer obsession they have with wrapping things properly. I've had two large antique piece of Japanese furniture shipped to my country, and the company built a box out of massive wood for each. Not counting the five layers of covering inside and outside...It took me a day to clear the package. Unbelievable. In Europe you're lucky if they add a sheet of Styrofoam inside cardboard. 

 So very true, Chris. I still remember buying something at the Yohji Yamamoto store in Tokyo many years ago and they wrapped it, then boxed it, then placed it in a cloth bag and then placed that in a store bag. Then they folded the receipt, placed it in an envelope and then handed it to me with a bow.

 

Here's one of my armour books:

 

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Tw9vPe.jpg

 

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John


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#55 estcrh

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 03:54 PM

Now you're teasing me, Eric!

Moi....never, now some boxes are empty and some have interesting things inside.

0fc92c85ab11b3aa9ba4f25959ffcbc2.jpg
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#56 kusunokimasahige

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:48 AM

And there I am with just my bento box ;)


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#57 Bugyotsuji

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 03:26 AM

Bento boxes often rock! :)


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#58 kissakai

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 07:03 PM

Hi

A box of no real quality but I like the lacquer work on the mirror

 

Mirror (1).jpg

 

Mirror (2).jpg

 


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#59 Shogun8

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 09:02 PM

Did anyone buy that box set with Aoi mon on Yahoo from a couple of weeks ago that purportedly was made to hold a sword/swords?


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#60 Shogun8

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 05:31 PM

Here's a box that a maedate came in with all kinds of inscriptions - on the box, the cloth case and the maedate itself.

 

h9ziQv.jpg

 

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pl8iPi.jpg

 

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