My God... Where Does One Even Start...?

[Adversary]

Greetings everyone. I should have de-lurked some time ago, but a change in fortune has kind of thrown my into a spin... so here i am.

 

Here's a little story hopefully someone here will read...

 

 

I've been fascinated... no, obsessed with nihonto and kenjustu forever, and with swords since i could hold a stick (lets call that mid-70's). I've wanted to buy a real katana since the day i found the internet, and realized that you could actually buy such a thing. Back then (mid-90's?) it was Bugei/Paul Chen type stuff. I saw modern Japanese smiths taking commissions back then too, but that was quite out of my league. I'm a starving artist by nature, so i've never had a lot of money, so the big purchase has been put off... and put off... and put off. All the while... i learn. Sadly, the bulk of my research has been wasted on modern katanas, as true nihonto always seemed out of my budget. 

 

One of my many 'day jobs' is building and dealing in muscle cars, so i know how to do my homework, and find deals. I'm inhumanly patient. Well... i just sold a car, and my (first step) dream of buying a Bugei 'Peace Sword' (about the nicest Chinese smithed katana out there) is now possible. First thing i do is look around for used examples. This leads me to a forum, where i see a guy selling a real (modern Western smith) custom. Its just a little more. Well then... he's got an even nicer one... for a few dollars more (my curse). Suddenly my sub-2K (Cdn) budget has stretched to 3K (about $2200US). Well... i cant afford this... but a stack of 100's like this doesn't come around often... so i'll happily suffer for my obsessions. I'm certain that THIS site is the ONE place where i wont be harassed for wanting to blow my food money on a sword. Heh heh... 

 

Long story short(er)... he sells the cheaper custom, and he is nice enough to talk himself out of a sure sale on the nicer one. Its too big and heavy, and i'd much prefer a lighter, faster sword. Nice to find an honest guy! 

 

But now... with this stretched budget... i bring up Ebay... i check out SFI... i come back here. I've also spent days perusing the links here to nihonto dealers. And suddenly, i'm seeing a LOT of actual nihonto, in or juuuust North of my range. Suddenly, i cant even bring myself to think about a non-nihonto blade. Hmmm... . . .

 

 

I'll cut to the chase. I want to buy a sword. I'm certainly no expert, but i learn fast. This money is burning a hole in my pocket (i AM patient... but spare funds do NOT last around here... they get eaten away... by life). So i have a conundrum: Do i break my rule of patience and make a semi-desperate purchase, based on what i know? or do i wait... and spend a grand less (because thats what happens) down the line on a better researched piece? I'm not one of those types that makes a blind, 'romantic' purchase, and then asks the experts if i did okay. I'll gamble with a lot of things... my future, my life, even other people's lives (when i drive... hahaha), but i NEVER gamble with money. Not in the 4-digits anyways.

 

 

I know what i like. I like QUALITY. I want the best sword possible... best as in one i could USE. I'm buying as a 'working samurai' here. My criteria starts at sai-jo saku, and moves down the list. That said... i'm not at all delusional on how this works (ie: i did not sell a Hemicuda convertible... my budget is in the low 4-digits). I want the best rated smith i can afford, wazamono rating if possible (i have questions about how these two concepts mesh... more on that later...), the best polish possible... and the best condition/most unmolested (un-cut, not 'tired') blade i can afford. Papers, obviously... would be better than not having them.

 

Having said all that, these are ALL works of art. Even the most banal can be beautiful (to me) if the rest of the criteria are met. I dont need the most flamboyant hamon, or stunning patterns. It DOES have to look good sitting there though. Many of the nihonto i see on some sites are in recent, or very nice looking, crisp  (to my eye anyways) Japanese polish. That is one area i do NOT intend to spend more money... having a blade polished. It would seem, to me at least, that many of these cheaper blades are a great deal due to this alone.

 

I dont plan on cutting with it, but i want to buy as if i will. I DRIVE my hotrods... in the rain, in the snow. They are cars. Cars drive. I dont intend on cutting with a true nihonto, but it IS a sword. Its a weapon after all is said and done. I want the best i can afford. I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc. 

 

 

I dont have a lot of stuff... but the few things i DO have (my car, my guitar rig, my hunting rifle, my work equipment) are NICE. I mean top-shelf, rare and highly desirable. I HATE compromise. I dont do it where i dont have to. Obviously... more than even that stuff, the sword should be the nicest thing i own.

 

 

Am i off base here? Cleary i dont expect to score a juyo piece from a sai-jo saku smith in stunning koshirae, but do i have a shot at finding something decent? Or do i buy the damn Peace Sword?

 

 

Heh... thanks for reading. I'll try and be less verbose in the future...

[Adversary]

Oh lovely... more reading...

 

Just an example of my mindset here. In say, the sub-5K US range. I see nicely polished swords with Hozen papers (even the occasional tokubetsu hozen), OR with jo-saku rating smiths, OR... you get my point. Very occasionally, i'll find one with both, OR one from a jo-jo-saku smith. Saw one a while back, around 5K, looked really nice (the blade's profile/shape is very important to me too), that was from a jo-jo saku smith, polished by a "high ranking polisher" as opposed to 'just' "in good polish", plus many good/interesting things said about the smith. Cant remember where, but i saw a decent looking sword from a sai-jo smith, and it was well-under 10K. 

 

Am i wrong to put stock in this stuff? considering my criteria for a sword? Or am i missing something obvious... seeing these seemingly swell deals on sites such as nihonto art, aoi art, samurai shokai, etc.?

 

Heh... I'll stop now.

[Stephen]

Check the for sale section yet??

 

Ray sells good swords 

 

he indorsed this

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22524-tokubetsu-hozon-shikkake-katana-late-nambokucho-27-price-drop/

 

i must admit i got lost a bit in your ramble but seen the bottom line You do want true nihonto

 

anyway check Rays swords and im sure he has others not  listed

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/6-for-sale-or-trade/

 

Also Ed at Yakiba it the list hes great to work with

Danny Massy same same

[Ray Singer]

Thanks for the kind words Stephen. FWIW, it is basically impossible to find a healthy, high-quality Yamato blade in polish with Tokubetsu Hozon for the price Darius is asking. The sword is Late Kamakura / Nambokucho period has beautiful activities and is priced at around the price for polish alone. If possible, I would strongly recommend making the extra stretch for that one...

[Jussi Ekholm]

Reading your post I am assuming ideally you are looking for sword in good condition, in koshirae and made by highly ranked smith and possibly papered. Unfortunately ticking all the boxes will usually come with quite a large price tag.

 

For sub 5k you can get very decent packages but you will have to do some choosing unless you get really lucky. I don't think your research on modern non-Japanese made swords is futile at all. You most likely have gotten many pointers on things you like and things you don't like. I think you will be much happier with genuine Japanese made sword either modern or antique than going with Bugei Peace (even though it is a nice sword in its own right).

[Grey Doffin]

Hello, name please,

If you can get to a sword show, San Francisco in August is next up, you'll probably be able to find something.  Keep looking at dealers' websites.  Be patient, take some more time in study and learning what you want and why, and eventually you'll find what you're looking for.

Grey

[eternal_newbie]

One thing a few people seemed to have missed is this bit:

 

I dont plan on cutting with it, but i want to buy as if i will. I DRIVE my hotrods... in the rain, in the snow. They are cars. Cars drive. I dont intend on cutting with a true nihonto, but it IS a sword. Its a weapon after all is said and done. I want the best i can afford. I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc.

 

I would suggest you aim for something a little newer, rather than a mounted work from the Edo or Koto period. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, even if you're careful and skilled, accidents happen - and all it takes is one slip-up to irreversibly damage a nihonto. If you'll forgive me for being a little blunt, if you want to stay on the "good books" of most of the people worth knowing in this community, you're going to have to work out whether an older, highly rated maker (sai-jo saku or wazamono) is more important to you than being able to use the sword for practice - or be prepared to invest enough money to buy one sword for appreciation and one for daily use.

 

One option would be to purchase your highly rated wazamono sword, mounted for use, and then have an iai-to (for example, http://www.tozandoshop.com/Minosaka-Brand-Basic-Iaito-p/016-s100.htm) customised to match the size and weight of the sword for practicing with. This way you don't risk damaging the sword in practice, but know more or less how it would feel in the hand if you were to use it that way.

 

Other than that, I concur with Grey's advice - be patient, learn what exactly you like and why. Us newer collectors are fortunate to "come of age" in an era when information - and more importantly, high-res pictures - of nihonto are plentiful and easy to find no matter where you live or who you know. Use that to your advantage before plonking down a 4-digit sum on a centuries-old piece of history.

 

Good luck!

[PNSSHOGUN]

A shinsakuto sounds more in line with what you are looking for.

[Curran]

There have been two exceptional Koto sword deals on NMB recently.

   (1)  The TH Shikkake that Daso currently has up

   (2)   A very nice H Bizen Kiyomitsu offered by a gent in Alaska.

 

If I were still collecting swords, instead of limiting myself to fittings,

I would have gone with one of these.

 

If you tend to swing these at anything- then it is a no-go.

You might as well finish a car, then drive it into the nearest wall. Turn what has been elevated to Art, back into Scrap or Salvage.

[PhoenixDude]

I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc.

DONT.

 

​You WILL irreversably damage a piece of art and history. Get a PC sword for that.

​Also look at it from a monetary perspective, you will damage and significantly reduce the value of a 3k dollar investment.

[Stephen]

Unless your a 10dan...and Sensei aproves

[Ray Singer]

I admittedly did overlook this comment in the opening post and would certainly not advocate using a sword like the Shikkake for practice.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc.

[eternal_newbie]

Another suggestion - if you do want a nihonto to use for practice, there is a very nice modern nihonto in the Bizen style available on this board: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21958-bizen-masashiro-shinsakuto/

 

It has already been used for practice and cutting so there is no harm in you doing the same. There's also several other "working samurai" swords available at this retailer, which gets updated semi-regularly: http://www.e-sword.jp/iai.htm

[PNSSHOGUN]

Many of us have either modern production or custom swords we use for iai, tameshigiri or reliving our favourite Zatoichi scenes. Use that to get it all out of your system before investing in fine Nihonto.

 

 

It's a miracle alot of these swords have survived to this day, don't be the guy who enters his factory condition Boss 429 into a demolition derby.

[Dr Fox]

There is something you need to know right off the bat.

Buying a fully mounted nihonto today, does not get you an item in its original form.

The tsuka will be comparatively modern. It will also have been made to present the blade. (and only that).

In the day, these tuska were fashioned to withstand the rigours of battle use. And they served exactly as fashioned.

Should you as 'a working samurai', imagine that all your safety features are in place.

And you perform your stated intentions, you may well get into a world of hurt.

Blades separating and flying through the air, are a documented fact.

If you want to swing a sword, buy one made just for that.

Nihonto and practice blades are worlds apart, avoid the confusion.

[Adversary]

Check the for sale section yet??

 

Ray sells good swords 

 

he indorsed this

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22524-tokubetsu-hozon-shikkake-katana-late-nambokucho-27-price-drop/

 

i must admit i got lost a bit in your ramble but seen the bottom line You do want true nihonto

 

anyway check Rays swords and im sure he has others not  listed

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/6-for-sale-or-trade/

 

Also Ed at Yakiba it the list hes great to work with

Danny Massy same same

 

 

Okay... wow. I really do appreciate the responses. I just had to throw that out there before i went away for the weekend. Glad i did.

 

Oh, and excuse my many replies. My computer refuses to multi-quote, among other basic things...

 

 

This sword is beautiful... and even before several people here suggested i'd be cracked to cut stuff with it, there's just no way. Not after spending that kind of money, and well... its just too damn pretty. Its also well beyond my means. Someday...

[Adversary]

Reading your post I am assuming ideally you are looking for sword in good condition, in koshirae and made by highly ranked smith and possibly papered. Unfortunately ticking all the boxes will usually come with quite a large price tag.

 

For sub 5k you can get very decent packages but you will have to do some choosing unless you get really lucky. I don't think your research on modern non-Japanese made swords is futile at all. You most likely have gotten many pointers on things you like and things you don't like. I think you will be much happier with genuine Japanese made sword either modern or antique than going with Bugei Peace (even though it is a nice sword in its own right).

 

There seems to be quite a few with more than one box 'ticked off'... for around DOUBLE my budget. For what i have, i'll likely have to settle for one trait. Or just something all around nice with none of the cool boxes ticked off. 

 

Keep in mind (i'm pretty sure i mentioned it somewhere in that mess), i'm in Canada. 5K turns into a LOT more than 5K really quick... My pretty much 'i'd be insane to spend this on a sword right now' budget is $2200US. I had to draw my line at $3000Cdn, all-in, done, in my hands. Now... if something truly absurd happened along... i may be able to fudge that a bit more... i'm talking maybe $4000-4500Cdn... but then my car doesn't get built and i'm walking for the rest of the year. 

 

So lets just say $2200Usd tops, but because i've been sucking exhaust fumes all weekend, i'm possibly open to 3Kish US. 

[Adversary]

Hello, name please,

If you can get to a sword show, San Francisco in August is next up, you'll probably be able to find something.  Keep looking at dealers' websites.  Be patient, take some more time in study and learning what you want and why, and eventually you'll find what you're looking for.

Grey

 

Too far, unfortunately. Do they have these sword clubs/shows in Vancouver BC?

 

I'm learning fast here. I should know pretty much all there is to know about nihonto in what... 2-300 more years?

 

Going to try and visit my friend sometime this week. He has literally dozens of katana, from $200 Paul Chens to the nicest Chinese 2K blades you can buy. Just going to handle the lot of them, and see what i like in terms of length, weight, balance, etc. That will further narrow the search down. Yeah, they're not real Japanese... but again, should give me a feel for sizes and such. He has a LOT of them.

[Adversary]

One thing a few people seemed to have missed is this bit:

 

I dont plan on cutting with it, but i want to buy as if i will. I DRIVE my hotrods... in the rain, in the snow. They are cars. Cars drive. I dont intend on cutting with a true nihonto, but it IS a sword. Its a weapon after all is said and done. I want the best i can afford. I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc.

 

I would suggest you aim for something a little newer, rather than a mounted work from the Edo or Koto period. Speaking from a martial arts perspective, even if you're careful and skilled, accidents happen - and all it takes is one slip-up to irreversibly damage a nihonto. If you'll forgive me for being a little blunt, if you want to stay on the "good books" of most of the people worth knowing in this community, you're going to have to work out whether an older, highly rated maker (sai-jo saku or wazamono) is more important to you than being able to use the sword for practice - or be prepared to invest enough money to buy one sword for appreciation and one for daily use.

 

One option would be to purchase your highly rated wazamono sword, mounted for use, and then have an iai-to (for example, http://www.tozandoshop.com/Minosaka-Brand-Basic-Iaito-p/016-s100.htm) customised to match the size and weight of the sword for practicing with. This way you don't risk damaging the sword in practice, but know more or less how it would feel in the hand if you were to use it that way.

 

Other than that, I concur with Grey's advice - be patient, learn what exactly you like and why. Us newer collectors are fortunate to "come of age" in an era when information - and more importantly, high-res pictures - of nihonto are plentiful and easy to find no matter where you live or who you know. Use that to your advantage before plonking down a 4-digit sum on a centuries-old piece of history.

 

Good luck!

 

Actually, i'd be more than happy with a nice, modern, gendaito. Despite the ratings and the praise around some of these older swords, i kind of like the nice, crisp nagako's of the newer swords, and the fact that i KNOW they haven't been messed with, cut, or polished 5 times. 'Using' (still not cutting, but using) an old sword put together around a rust-corroded nagako doesn't exactly inspire confidence. 

 

The ratings and such stopped with the newer swords did they not? How does one 'rate' them then... in terms of quality of sword/smith? I'm guessing one just has to know and memorize all the names? 

 

And your second suggestion was exactly what i had in mind. A nice, beautiful (but still useful) sword, and then a second, less valuable... perhaps 'Ebay-quality' (as someone said) but similar feel swinger/cutter. You can get real nihonto as cheap as a grand on Ebay... something that will never be papered or lusted after.

 

I'm definitely using this info-storm to my benefit. Thats why i'm here. 

[Adversary]

There have been two exceptional Koto sword deals on NMB recently.

   (1)  The TH Shikkake that Daso currently has up

   (2)   A very nice H Bizen Kiyomitsu offered by a gent in Alaska.

 

If I were still collecting swords, instead of limiting myself to fittings,

I would have gone with one of these.

 

If you tend to swing these at anything- then it is a no-go.

You might as well finish a car, then drive it into the nearest wall. Turn what has been elevated to Art, back into Scrap or Salvage.

 

 

The first is damn nice. But unless he gets drunk one night and offers it at half that price, i just cant swing it. (heh...)

 

Whats this Kiyomitsu?

 

I wont be cutting. That was never the plan. I WILL be buying a sword with a nice polish... and i dont plan on spending to get it re-polished. I've yet to see a sword thats used for cutting frequently thats not scratched.

[Adversary]

There is something you need to know right off the bat.

Buying a fully mounted nihonto today, does not get you an item in its original form.

The tsuka will be comparatively modern. It will also have been made to present the blade. (and only that).

In the day, these tuska were fashioned to withstand the rigours of battle use. And they served exactly as fashioned.

Should you as 'a working samurai', imagine that all your safety features are in place.

And you perform your stated intentions, you may well get into a world of hurt.

Blades separating and flying through the air, are a documented fact.

If you want to swing a sword, buy one made just for that.

Nihonto and practice blades are worlds apart, avoid the confusion.

 

 

Okay, now this is an interesting point. WHY... would anyone skimp on a tsuka, to put on a quality blade? Even IF the thing's not going to cut anymore... mats, people... quality is quality. This doesn't make sense to me. If this is true, then yes, thats a VERY important point. As far as i'm concerned, a true nihonto, assembled with either antique or modern fittings, should still be the superior of even the best Bugei or $2500 non-Japanese blades, in EVERY way. Is this not so? PLEASE tell me that there is no such thing as a 'display' tsuka... not made to original standards, if not better. 

 

I would not have considered this. 

[PhoenixDude]

"You can get real nihonto as cheap as a grand on Ebay... something that will never be papered or lusted after."

 

Eh.. Im not trying to be a douche or anything, but if you see a real nihonto on ebay for sub 1k its either

A: a rusty shelalie.

B: not nihonto.

[ROKUJURO]

Judas,

as was already explained, a TSUKA changes with age. The wood dries out, the glue (usually rice starch glue) may loose some of its bonding capacity over the years, and fine cracks can occur in the wood. The MEKUGI undergoes the same alterations.

Although an original EDO period TSUKA might have been made with the best materials available at the time, it may have become inferior in terms of quality for battle use (or SUBURI). That is the reason why TSUKA are being replaced. It is just a question of safety. An old, museum quality TSUKA might be saved for display only. 

Concerning your friend with his dozens of Chinese swords: You won't learn much from them, I am afraid!

[Adversary]

"You can get real nihonto as cheap as a grand on Ebay... something that will never be papered or lusted after."

 

Eh.. Im not trying to be a douche or anything, but if you see a real nihonto on ebay for sub 1k its either

A: a rusty shelalie.

B: not nihonto.

 

 

Okay, wakisashi's for that then. The one guy... with a TON of swords 'koushuya' seems to have a lot of affordable stuff? Just now saw a wakisashi with NBTHK papers for $1350. Or how about Mr 'sharp steel blade' (Japaneseswordgallery)? Long blades seem to start at $1500, with the odd one for less. Or are these not what they appear?

[Adversary]

Judas,

 

as was already explained, a TSUKA changes with age. The wood dries out, the glue (usually rice starch glue) may loose some of its bonding capacity over the years, and fine cracks can occur in the wood. The MEKUGI undergoes the same alterations.

 

Although an original EDO period TSUKA might have been made with the best materials available at the time, it may have become inferior in terms of quality for battle use (or SUBURI). That is the reason why TSUKA are being replaced. It is just a question of safety. An old, museum quality TSUKA might be saved for display only. 

 

Concerning your friend with his dozens of Chinese swords: You won't learn much from them, I am afraid!

 

I was talking about NEW tsuka, refitted to antique blades. But real ones, made by the type of craftsmen that still build the swords too. The antique stuff... absolutely. You can even SEE the cracks in some of them.

 

Curious, are the Chinese swords THAT far off... in feel? I was only talking about getting a feel for the lengths, weights, and shapes that might suit me. 

[PhoenixDude]

I wont comment on specific sellers but yeah a wak in good polish will average about 2k, katana about 3. I was of the understanding you meant 1k or less.

[Adversary]

I wont comment on specific sellers but yeah a wak in good polish will average about 2k, katana about 3. I was of the understanding you meant 1k or less.

 

 

I did. I may have seen one or two around there in the past couple weeks. Guessing they start around $1500 though.

[PNSSHOGUN]

You can certainly find a decent condition shinto wakizashi for under $1000 USD. If you check the sales section you can get some remarkable deals from members.

 

 

The recent surge of "cheaper" nihonto on ebay is not to be simply ignored, while many of these wakizashi coming out of Japan are neither particularly fine, papered or in excellent condition they are for the most part genuine swords. Most have gimei, flaws or are in poor condition and the prices reflect that.

 

However my advice is to purchase through the reputable dealers, many of which post here, and come away without any doubts and a fine example of what you're looking for.

[Dr Fox]

Your comment.

Quote.

 

" WHY... would anyone skimp on a tsuka, to put on a quality blade? Even IF the thing's not going to cut anymore... mats, people... quality is quality. This doesn't make sense to me."

 

You have answered your own query. 'Because it will not be swung or used anymore'.

​In the day the fit of tsuka and nakago were extremely tight, the mekugi peg a locater, but not the only means of securing the blade.

 

The fashion of wanting to examine a blade, has invariably led to tsuka's being fashioned to be easily removed, thus not needing to meet the criteria needed for battle.

 

Within your price range, you will very probably get a later fitted nihonto blade.

 

My response to you is not in the aspect of 'cutting', but your stated intention for:

"

I want the best sword possible... best as in one i could USE. I'm buying as a 'working samurai' here.

I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc. "

 

Swinging a blade, as is performed in suburi, iaido and kendo, puts considerable strain on the blade, be it an alloy iaito or a steel sword, sharp or otherwise.

​The maximum shearing force occurs at the hand guard, and at the mekugi during acceleration and deceleration. 

When you understand the principle of forces exerted during the above, further advice on this topic will be unnecessary.

[Jamie]

This website is devoted to the preservation of nihonto and not the use of them in any way. I am curious why this hasn't exactly been pointed out.

Not a good idea to be using an antique.