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Trusted Polishers


Richard Arias

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I know the heavies that have 2 year back logs. I'm looking for someone lower key that can work a little finger stone magic on my Shinsakuto to see a little of the hidden beauty.

 

Can anyone vouch for a forumite or Shop that won't charge me a small fortune?

 

-Richard

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So you are looking for an amateur to assist with screwing up your sword? Hope it's a non-traditional "Western" made sword...or Chinese one. If traditional, then what you are asking cannot be provided here.

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(The collector who owns many shinsakuto - one currently with a mukansa polisher - Abe Kazunori - silently shakes his head in disapproval)

I'm referring to the many martial arts grade shinsakuto out there, not fine examples worthy of sending to Japan!

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I think most collectors in here are not using their swords for cutting but I personally don't think using a modern made Japanese sword for cutting is doing anything too bad for the sword. Of course you will get so wear over time but nothing too bad. Getting a better polish when the sword is in using stage would be in my opinion money thrown in the well. It is better to get the polish only when you retire the sword from use.

 

As far as polishers go I can't recommend anyone. I would advise looking at the worksmanship and background of polishers that you like and choosing a polisher based on those things.

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Well guys I'm not a new to this. I have been a Swordsman for 10 years and before that I was a vendor. Yeah I have been to the Token Kai and seen $40,000 swords. And honestly you can't get me to see the light of collecting in almost any form. It's mostly for people born to a higher privilege or people that have acquired "f**k you money".    

 

       I am sorry I plan to use my sword to train for a competition in October. So I can't sit and wait 2 years on some high class Polishers backlog and pay him a small fortune for what is pure cosmetic finish work that does in now way alter the swords cutting ability. A simple " no we don't know anyone " would have been nice. I honestly feel for my needs sending a blade of full Polish is like a custom paint job on a stock car.  Hataya Sensei used to touch up blades at tai kai for the swordsman and I was looking for someone more of that level. Just someone with experience that Could give me a little cosmic light without draining my wallet.

 

    I honestly feel like most collection hobbies are a rip off that only pay dealers. And I the attitudes I am met with by some just reinforce that view. I would be happy with the grade of Polish many Shinsakuto arrive in... Because it will allow me to see a bit of hidden beauty and not feel bad for ruining the finish.

 

-Richard

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Richard, I'm wondering what you are doing on NMB? Brian's Web-site is conspicuously noted as being for the study & preservation of genuine Japanese swords. You, on the other hand, appear to believe that swords are for training, rather than collecting, which is NOT the primary reason that NMB exists. Why don't you head over to Swordforum.com, or even to e-Budo.com (which I happen to own), where you will find others who think like you?

 

Brian, do we need this?

Ken

 

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     After 20+ years of study, evaluation, and purchase of a lot of " polished swords  ", I have always asked who did the polish. The cruel answer in 90% is of an individual who has been in the study and collection for years, who now how taken upon himself to polish.

 

Just bought a wonderful fully mounted tanto with such polish. Attribution is wrong, and the polish  is so weak !! Could be a really wonderful study sword, shinsa will tell.

 

But, I am unsure of the current prices extracted from us for the polish of a blade. It seems a lot for many of the items that are not so in bad shape. Cost per hour of time would be of interest. And, the protocol of polishing seems to be a complex maze of direction.

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I am a free market guy, believe if demand is there then there will be a market.

 

If there are only say 3-8 good polish guys, that seems like a real problem. So either:

1. training and study for a correct polish is very rare

2. it's possible (modern techniques,  but not much demand)

 

If a polish shop has a 2 year wait period there is something not right.

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There are plenty of fully trained togi in Japan. The problem isn't the supply of polishers or training. The problem is that many people are unwilling to spend the money to have a proper polish applied. They also feel justified when they get there cheaply "polished" blade back because usually, they do not have the experience to know a good polish from a bad one, so all they see is a shiny blade, that used to be dull or rusty. When amateur polishers have a longer wait list than Mukansa polishers in Japan, you can see that the two year wait list DOES imply that something is not right. A lot of people who feel they care for swords but disrepect the art and the craft all to save money and (in some cases) time for a wait list.

 

In my opinion it's a sad state of affairs.

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There are plenty of fully trained togi in Japan. The problem isn't the supply of polishers or training. The problem is that many people are unwilling to spend the money to have a proper polish applied. They also feel justified when they get there cheaply "polished" blade back because usually, they do not have the experience to know a good polish from a bad one, so all they see is a shiny blade, that used to be dull or rusty. When amateur polishers have a longer wait list than Mukansa polishers in Japan, you can see that the two year wait list DOES imply that something is not right. A lot of people who feel they care for swords but disrepect the art and the craft all to save money and (in some cases) time for a wait list.

 

In my opinion it's a sad state of affairs.

This post is perfect. Captures what I was thinking and I did not present it right. 

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All true, and also it's important to remember that proper polishing takes time. A lot of it. So there is some built-in scarcity. And there's a fair amount of risk involved for the blade, too. Even the greatest sword ever made can have its kissaki snapped by an idiot with a whetstone. One wrong move in the boshi and you're toast. You get what you pay for.

 

Now, if a mukansa-level polish costs one tenth the value of your blade it's not a hard investment to make. If the togishi charges more than you paid for your blade you have a decision to make.

 

All that said, if someone is lucky enough to own a shinsakuto for use in the dojo, we shouldn't denigrate them for not wanting a mukansa-level polish either. Centuries-old pieces of history must be protected (and of course sometimes that means choosing *not* to polish!). A sword forged 2 years ago made for tameshigiri is meant to be used.

 

Different strokes, different folks.

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After several years participating on this forum, you tend to see a few reoccurring subjects, and among these is polishing.  I think Ken hit this one perfectly; this board is devoted to art swords and their appreciation.  Richard, I think that you are seeing the reaction of people who truly love Nihonto; your question is probably best served in a different forum.  Although new people here can sometimes feel they are rubbed the wrong way, I can promise that if you stick around, you will interact with some of the finest gentlemen I have ever met.

 

Joe also makes a great point about the difference in polishers.  A mukansa level polisher can have 6 months to a year wait, and charges $50 to $75 per cm polished, but they are the best in the world.  A less accomplished polisher, still fully trained, can have a longer wait list due to the cost savings.  The thing we are all in agreement is that a short wait and low price is a red flag for an untrained polisher.  As is brought up many times, being Japanese is not a requirement, but the almost 10 years of intense study under a master polisher is, and therefore there are less non-Japanese polishers available. 

 

Unfortunately, most of us have seen a sword that has been ruined by someone using a quick and cheap polisher.  They have either lost unnecessary steel, ruined the geometry, or been made shiny.  Since an art sword only has a few polishes in its life, we all are very defensive in this area, so please don't take too much offense to our replies.

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Properly trained - and therefore trusted - polishers outside of Japan are a rarity, and thus anyone who meets this criteria automatically becomes "a heavy". So unfortunately, your choices are to wait for a heavy to become available, or chance it with someone untrusted and untrained.

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Good morning all.,

 

Surely the state of polish on a blade is not going to affect whether the sword will cut any better or worse.

 

Tameshigiri will show on the surface of the blade sooner than later due to the silica present in grasses, particularly in tatami omote.

 

So why bother to polish a blade for Tameshigiri?

 

Just a thought.

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Well well well....
Collecting anything is mostly for people born to a higher privilege or people that have acquired "f**k you money"??
Mkaaay then. Can only laugh at that, since most of the collectors I know including myself are well below average income, but are happy to save their money for things they enjoy. I personally think people who collect or study nothing at all have shallow lives filled with instant gratification. But hey...to each their own, right?
You aren't just refusing top professional polishers, but are rejecting anyone "known" who polishes for a living or is well known. Ted does a good job, and isn't a top Japanese togi. But he is too well known, so you are clearly looking for a cheap amateur.
And even for a shinsakuto used for iai, that is a no-no here. Yes, there are lower level polishes done by professionals purely for functional items. But expecting that someone can just hit your sword with some fingerstones and bring out a decent polish is not going to happen. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your philosophy, but it is ours.
As Malcolm said..why bother on an iai-to?

 

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If you want to bring out the hamon and hada a bit on your shinsakuto, just uchiko it a lot. I know that's a no no for Nihonto collectors, but it works and I see no reason not to try it on a sword used for cutting. Just MHO.

 

Rich

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(As I said, it is a no no for good swords, but I don't see a reason not to do it (uchiko-ing) for a modern cutter).

 

 

Ah C'Mon- what would Uchiko Jim do? Old 'White Lung' would certainly mix it up, but the argument would have enough humor in it to keep it civil.

L'il uchiko with a bit of choji oil and papering- done by someone patient enough. For a modern cutter, yes- I can see this.

It would take a fair bit of uchiko, but pray to a bowl of water and invite Uchiko Jim to possess you for a while.

 

Richard:  Derek said it best in that often people get rubbed the wrong way by this forum initially, but ultimately it is the best one. It can be quiet are argumentative for periods, but then have brilliant flare ups of education even for those of us here for decades now. For your immediate needs, Ken's forum might be more useful. Still, stick around if you have the time- your opinions might change. Mine have over the years.

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I collect to preserve and enjoy. When I'm gone i hope another younger collector will do the same.

I'm not a swordsman, a samuraifighter or a weekendwarrior. I'm only a man who had fun in preserving history. A polish is not cosmetic. It is art.

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Well well well....

Collecting anything is mostly for people born to a higher privilege or people that have acquired "f**k you money"??

Mkaaay then. Can only laugh at that, since most of the collectors I know including myself are well below average income, but are happy to save their money for things they enjoy. I personally think people who collect or study nothing at all have shallow lives filled with instant gratification. But hey...to each their own, right?

You aren't just refusing top professional polishers, but are rejecting anyone "known" who polishes for a living or is well known. Ted does a good job, and isn't a top Japanese togi. But he is too well known, so you are clearly looking for a cheap amateur.

And even for a shinsakuto used for iai, that is a no-no here. Yes, there are lower level polishes done by professionals purely for functional items. But expecting that someone can just hit your sword with some fingerstones and bring out a decent polish is not going to happen. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your philosophy, but it is ours.

As Malcolm said..why bother on an iai-to?

 

Every known you or someone you can simply Google is busy or not working.... So that was the meaning in my post. I am looking for someone not obvious... Yet that is all people keep giving me. The usual suspects...

 

Sending to Japan I was advised that was not a good idea by my Sensei in Japan at the moment with customs and the lack of paperwork I have.

 

 

As for collectors... Yeah some are normal, but maybe it's just the level of condescending comments I have gotten in just a few days that is making me abrasive. But when your take home pay is $8 an hour your income is most likely privileged or upper class by my scale.

 

I asked for an unknown avenue... Not to tread the same ground I already have even before posting people.

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I am a free market guy, believe if demand is there then there will be a market.

If there are only say 3-8 good polish guys, that seems like a real problem. So either:
1. training and study for a correct polish is very rare
2. it's possible (modern techniques, but not much demand)

If a polish shop has a 2 year wait period there is something not right.


Many shops in Japan have apprentice drop outs doing refinish work for about $500. Even master Togi in Japan have their apprentice doing work and projects they decide the apprentice can handle. But in America it's a lower price point because of the mass production market. Even Gunto are not allowed In Japan but good market here. But here there is a "what's practical?" Mind set. So shops here are 1 person and I have yet to see a togi here with an apprentice still doing work... But much of the arts and craft is dying here. I have felt that first hand for years on the JSA side.


A good polisher is like a stylist as opposed to a Barber. They know exactly the technique to achieve a look based on what they want to represent in a sword. Nihonzashi would be a Barber shop or say a Neighborhood mechanic. They went to 80 grit stone up to 1/4 micron on my Shinsakuto to fix the geometry, scratches ex. So any complaints a traditional polisher would have are from a style perspective where they would have done some things differently ex. But people lose sight of this fact all to easy when your taking about ideals of collecting. At a point your paying for who rather than what or how.

I doubt when people here have car trouble or need a paint job they head to a custom shop or the highest priced shop in town. I doubt they always buy the best parts. I doubt they only drink Jonny Walker Blue and only eat the porter house steak or Kobe Beef... Sometimes you prioritize based on what you think is right to spend with what you have and the situation.... Am I going to pay $400 for a Kona Nigari Water?... No but man even though there are good reasons it's expensive... it's still water.

Randy Black is someone not common knowledge outside a certain circle. I was hoping to find his polishing equivalent here, but alas no dice.
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