Parade/light Weight Gunto

[Shamsy]

So I took a little bit of a risk on this one and it's paid off. I really wasn't sure what it'd be exactly; if it was a parts mash, Chinese fake or a mix of both. Pleasantly, it turned out to be original once I had a look at it, but it doesn't comfortably fall under the 'Light Weight Gunto' category (feels pretty hefty to me) nor the parade sword, as it lacks... well the parade feel.

 

Ultimately, what you're looking at is a 100% standard gunto... with a plated blade and acid etched hamon. Now, Take a good look through the photos. As you can see the tsuba, seppa and locking catch are all stamped '14'. Great! The tsuka is a little thinner than the standard gunto but otherwise in no way different. The mekugi is a little broader than usual to but again not unusual. The saya is not typical design and I wasn't sure what to make of this. The blade fitted perfectly, the locking latch is a match to, but I'm known to be a skeptic. The colour is actually original to. There are a few traces of the original olive green or whatever (I'm colour blind right) paint all over the thing. At some stage it would have been the standard green of the officers steel saya. Moving on, something I almost never do, I took the throat off to see what the liner looked like. Another pleasant surprise! While it is extremely dry and fragile and damaged in a few places, the liner is intact! Not only that but it has some sort of painted symbol (I don't read kanji so I won't make any assumption). It could say 'made in China', but given the age and condition, I think not. I thought (oh no!) that the liner was held together with masking tape, which doesn't bode well. Wrong. It is VERY thin and even more fragile rice paper that is... glued? on. Or maybe was applied wet and self adhered. I slightly cracked some when I touched it. Yes, I'll whip myself later.

 

The other thing I noticed (and no, it's obvious in hand, if not the photos), the saya throat, the tip of the nakago and the habaki all have a series of 4 notches and an x.

 

The blade is a pretty standard machine made one similar to those found on the parade sabers, but obviously slightly more in the style of a shingunto than a dress sword. Look at that kissaki! Yuck! But the same as a all the sabers which in my book is good. The nakago looks to have taken a bit of a knock, but could just be crude.

 

Not seen one of these exact swords before but I am certain it is authentic. Current skills of patina forging is not that good. Plus Chinese don't know how to add that much dust and smell to the inside of a scabbard. If I had to guess (which I do have to!) I would say custom purchase, non-combat role. Looks the part but the cost would be considerably less. Maybe a doctor or something like that, but this is pure speculation.

 

[Pretty please, if that painted thing on the liner looks like something Japanese (or Chinese even) that you recognise, post a comment below.]

[Shamsy]

And here are the remaining...

[Dave R]

 My guess, (and it is a guess) is that it is a Kyu-Gunto retrofitted during it's working life to a Shin-Gunto when the new regulations came into force.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

 

If this post were brought by a stranger everyone would be yelling "Frankenstein!!!!" Buy you have been at this much longer than I and have the balde in hand, which by itself can tell a person a lot, so for the first time, one of our odd-balls is getting a serious look!

 

First, The paint job is gold, not green, sorry dude! Since I've been collecting, I've seen 8 others painted that way, and own 2 of them. I can't clearly see the underlying color in your shots, but it looks red from the ones you've given us.

 

The nakago is so bad, it would normally be an immediate: fake or made in Occupied Islands. But Occupied Island blade makers don't mount with legit IJA parts (very good ones at that), and neither do the fakers. The aluminum seppa were widely used, so no worries there.

 

The saya seems to be a Nagoya NCO, but as you know, they have a screw hole centered on the side, where this one seems to have been made with this offset setting for a nicely made custom throat-cover. My first thought was "No officer would have a custom gunto made with an NCO saya." But we know that due to shortages, early on, officer were carrying Type95s, so why NOT one with an NCO saya?

 

Someone else will have to chime in on the liner writing. The first character looks like the number 8.

 

I have seen a similiar gunto discussed earlier, I wish I could remember when or where, and wonder if it was this same gunto. Everyone was just as stymied on that one too. It's too well put together with good quality fittings to be a fake. Your theory is just as good as any other. Enjoy! And thanks for the challenging discussion!

[Shamsy]

Thanks David and Bruce for your thoughts and insights. Both good observations and it's quite possibly David is onto something with the reuse of old fittings. I'll answer some of the points Bruce raised for further discussion.

 

The gold paint is actually the base paint. It is under the other paint, like a priming coat you could say. The picture of the hanging ring best shows this where you can see the metal under the ring, the gold matte layer then a little of the green paint layer. So I can definitely say that the thing was painted, but has now lost 95% that original paint. I also asked for assistance confirming the colour and it is indeed green. The flash on the camera makes it look odd. I'll clarify that again though just to be sure.

 

The saya is completely different dimensions to the NCOs saya. I thought at first it may be retrofitting but no, longer, thinner and as you said Bruce, no screw hole and no evidence of throat adjustments. I thought it my have been from another sword, but the fit and then the marvelous lining convinced me it is original, as well as those weird little file patterns.

 

I agree with the blade. I would have cried fake to based on the nakago and kissaki, but only had it been trying to be a combat gunto. See, the shape of parade saber kissaki is identical, so you can't call non - Japanese on that. The nakago.... well it is not great, but it is the right shape, has some file marks. Also, not certain I've seen many plated blades faked. Gunto and badly made 95 are the predominant swords from China. The fit is just too good to.

 

Fittings are matching and beyond doubt.

 

I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm comfortable to call it a non combat gunto.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks for the clarifications Steve! It's almost impossible to tell proportionality in a pic! And I have seen parade saya with that fat-drag look.

 

I've seen a few habaki with the strange IIIIX markings and have one on a nice kaigunto myself. Seems to speek "custom" to me.

 

VERY interesting piece buddy-boy!

[paul griff]

Hello,

Actually Bruce "Frankenstein " would be my description.....The blade has no redeeming features...it is terrible.! The kanji looks like it was done with a felt pen,it doesn't seem overlay like paint....but without item in hand could be wrong ? There are plenty of tsuba,seppa and associated hilt fittings to be had on the market for unscrupulous sellers to build on.....and the kind of contradiction there is that the tsuba,seppa's with their matching factory stamps are 100% genuine ..... I don't think a last ditch or occupied area sword would have these fittings with a nice spring clip..! Finally the officer's tsuka and NCO's saya ? This is of course only my opinion and it is not a rude attack on an interesting topic...

Regards,

Paul...

[lonely panet]

check the inside of the koiguchi, if its been put tpgeather post war, there would most likey be extra  alterations to make the locking mech work. Either filing or adding materal

[EdWolf]

Hi Steve,

That’s an interesting sword. As a novice sword collector, I can’t give you more information about your sword. From the pictures, you provided it clearly shows a red/brown under the gold paint. The gold paint is not the primer coat. The gold paint on top of the small damage is also a sign that the gold paint is added at a later stage.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Shamsy]

check the inside of the koiguchi, if its been put tpgeather post war, there would most likey be extra  alterations to make the locking mech work. Either filing or adding materal

Good hint Hamish, I'll check that out tonight, see what's what.

 

Ed - it's hard to see in the photo but the gold paint definitely looks like a middle layer! I'll see if I can get a shot to demonstrate this tonight and do the old look and feel test.

 

Paul - You're comments are welcome and appreciated. This hobby requires skepticism and a critical mind. As the owner I of course want it to be real so I'm not as objective in my assessment. I will follow up on some of your points tonight to see what I can do to clarify or answer.

 

Bruce - if you've seen this marking before then that's great to hear. It was too obvious on the habaki to miss and that made me take note of the other parts.

 

More coming tonight, thank you for the great contributions!

[EdWolf]

Hi Steve,

I am collecting German helmets for almost 35 years. Detecting fake camouflage paint or post war applied paint is a skill I have developed in these years. The red circles I have painted in the picture is a sign that the gold paint it added at a later stage.

Ed

[Bruce Pennington]

My thoughts about the paint are: I own 3 very nice Type 95s that came to me with post-war paint. One had been totally stripped and repainted with gold, even the blade!!! The Late war one had gold painted saya and tsuka. The Nagoya side-latch had a horrible blotched multi-green saya. All of which were done by American Gonzo's "fixing up" their swords. No illicit swordmaker would EVER have painted their immitations as horribly as these! So the after-war painting lends credance to the LEGITIMACY of the swords.

 

Maybe new pics will reveal that this paint really isn't gold, I've seen camera auto-corrections change the color of my own shots sometimes. But if it comes out GOLD, I propose it is post-war and, while doesn't prove the legitimacy of the gunto, it certainly isn't a sign of attempted fakery. Whoever went to the trouble to using high quility fittings clearly wouldn't have pulled a Gonzo stunt and paint it gold.

[Bruce Pennington]

After thinking on Dave's idea at the top, it dawned on me that one of the primary things that freaks us out is the high-quality tsuka/tsuba settings fix themselves in our minds as "primary" and then seeing the "NCO" saya, or as Steve expertly has claritfied, a parade/dress saya - seems out of place.

 

But I think that Dave had it right. The gunto was probably originally a parade/dress sabre. It is possible it was damaged in the field, and a repair team, out of the right kink of handle, reworked the nakago and retro-fitted it with nice shingunto befitting a 'dress blade."

 

Just thinking.

[EdWolf]

I agree with Bruce. The fact that the paint is added post war doesn’t prove anything else about this sword. I only mentioned the post war paint because Steve thought that the gold color paint was the primer coat.

Ed

[Shamsy]

Well all, I have quite an update... As I said I'm not going to defend the sword as original in the face of contrary evidence or tidy the facts for my own benefit. Learning is good.

 

First of all, well done Ed! You were spot on mate. Goes to show that experience can easily pay off. The gold does appear to be paint added at a later stage. There was quite some discussion off board about this and some great examples of genuine proven undercoats came out for us to see. Now, I am not usually in favor of doing this, but I noticed a few things that I missed last night that made me feel okay with it... So I tried to scrape away some of the brown paint with my finger nail. Instead, the gold scraped away! Now, you may consider that a bit of a blow, but no! Under the gold there is nice, crisp ORIGINAL brown! Have a look at the photo I post with the saya mouth to. It clearly shows that the gold was sprayed on the assembled saya. Gonza alive and well Bruce. It might take a while, but I fully intend to remove all the gold and restore it to the original.

 

Next test, compare the saya to an NCO. Well you can see the hanger and ring are not even close. All NCO with the metal saya have identical hangers without exception (well there is one but it's not worth mention). The hanger itself is considerably longer to, both in the solid part and the 'wrap around bands' (getting technical here).

 

The drag was interesting to compare. On almost all the ones I looked at, the drag and saya tip would not match up. There was one similar shape, but again the saya tip didn't match. Now, I won't 100% rule out a machined NCO scabbard, but I was unable to perfectly match from a sample. More likely a Kyu Gunto, as the screw system is similar.

 

Hamish had an excellent idea to check the koiguchi which I did. There was some wear where the clip makes retaining contact underneath (as expected and meaning nothing). There was also rubbing marks on one side of the notch where the spring clip would scrape every time the button is depressed. Could that be file marks? I don't know, but maybe.

 

EDIT: Reassembled the sword. The edge of the retention clip does rub when the sword is sheathed, so that accounts for the bare metal. Also, that slot matches to the wooden insert so I'm quite certain it's not been jammed in there. The wooden insert smells musty. The Chinese can't do that.

 

Bruce: I also found another those weird notches on the saya to, so go figure.

[Shamsy]

And if you have a better option to remove the gold than a finger nail, my finger will forever be indebted.

[EdWolf]

To remove the old paint, you can use nail polish remover. The war time paint doesn’t react to this because it contains lead. The post war paint will come off. Please, start with a small area.

[Shamsy]

Thank you Ed, but should the results be reasonably immediate? The nail polish remover (luckily had some) doesn't seem to be doing much....

[EdWolf]

Use a cotton ball and gently rubbing the golden paint. It will take some time but the paint should come off.

[Shamsy]

Thank you for the advice Ed. It turns out that the gold paint must be lead based to. I rubbed the cotton ball for a good 10 minutes without any results to show. It looks like fingernails are the go for now.

[Dave R]

 Try a piece of plastic or horn. Horn (not bone) is the same stuff as your fingernail.

 Regarding changes of hilt, it is something seen on British officers swords, there is a change of hilt pattern or King/Queen's monogram and rather than replace the whole sword a new hilt is fitted. You then get the old style blade with the new pattern hilt.

[EdWolf]

Be sure that the nail polish remover is acetone based.

[Shamsy]

Be sure that the nail polish remover is acetone based.

It says acetone formula for natural nails on the bottle. I think it's just a case of the gold paint also being lead based. A real pitty, it would have saved a lot of work.

[EdWolf]

That's too bad. Good luck scraping the paint.

[Shamsy]

Here are a couple of pictures of pressed metal koiguchi on gunto, near identical to the one in question. I was afraid mine was filed, but was relieved to find the retaining clip just rubs slightly on one side. That is why there are only two tiny channels; one when the sword is sheathed without the button depressed and one when it is.

 

So far I'm happy to conclude that there are two sets of matching fittings that are original. The tsuba, seppa, retaining pin all being stamped 14, that's a no brainer. Then the saya, saya koiguchi and habaki all have small IIIX marks. The blade has these marks at the terminus of the nakago to. Saya is original needing no evidence beyond that lining. I'm actually going to take a look at a couple more now because I'm really interested to see how those compare.

 

My main doubt is the blade, but combine with the marks, a perfect fit to tsuka, perfect fit to saya, I'm pretty much over any doubt. With the fact that there were plenty of non-combat roles, officer blades were privately purchased and a severe shortages throughout the war I can't really see a lot of reason to doubt.

 

The gold paint is not original but it's not recent. The fact that the brown underneath is in immaculate condition is great in my book, but I'll hold off on removal until more research is done.

 

Thank you all for your contributions. If you agree great! If not don't ever feel like you can't disagree, but try to provide reason and evidence!

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice work, Steve! Too bad about the paint. Leaded paint wasn't outlawed in the US until 1978.

[paul griff]

Hello Steve,

Glad it is working out for you.....Maybe I'm too cynical these days ! When it comes to taking a chance I've become a bit of a coward......Have enjoyed revisiting the books as a result of the post.

Regards,

Paul.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve!!! Just came across this in Dawson's book! Not identical but too similar for coincidence. He calls it a rare dress shingunto. The handle is metal in this one, but the saya is the same.

[Shamsy]

Hi Bruce, good investigation! I'd already found the lightweight and dress gunto on my initial searches. I just named my thread parade as Dawson states the two terms are appropriate and interchangeable. I had initially thought it was somewhere in between the two swords, but while it look lighter and is a little more sleek than the typical gunto, it's hardly a lightweight! I would say the dress/parade gunto is closer. Now, one big problem with Dawson is that it's not really defined if these are distinct patterns nor whether there are multiple examples or just one. I've seen a couple of lightweight for sale and they matched the book exactly, but I've never seen a dress gunto. At least not one beyond the book. Is it unique? Are there variations? Do they all have a cast handle? Do they have have plated scabbards? I'm sadly ignorant to those questions.

 

While my sword shares characteristics, it's different enough that it could be something else. Of course in saying that, were the 'dress gunto' unique then it's really a moot point as all 'dress gunto' would similarly be unique. The saya is an exact match bar the throat, which is a great start. It also has the extended hanger with the small ring. Nice pickup. Could be one of these dress gunto, which aligns fairly well with my own speculation that it is probably something made for a non combat role, where blades were scarce and looks were all that was necessary.