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Seki Stamp: Only Manufactured Blades?


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#1 barnejp

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:42 AM

Hello Everyone,

 

I noticed a post some years ago and interested in members opinions now.

 

Are all nakago with a seki stamp manufactured or are some hand forged?

 

Thank you.

 

 


Greg

#2 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:31 AM

Greg,

The answer is "yes." Ha! What the Seki stamp tells you is that the blade is "non-traditional." I've learned to never say never or always, but mostly, the stamp is found on blades made in such a manner that they are not considered traditionally made. The blade could be hand made, in the traditional fashion, but if the smith used non-Japanese steel, then it's classified as non-traditional. If the smith used hydraulic hammers to pound out the steel, it's non-traditional. There are 9 variations and all but 1 are classified as non-traditional.
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#3 drjoe

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:52 AM

http://ryujinswords.com/shostamp.htm


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#4 seattle1

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:04 PM

Hello:

 The reference referred to by Joe Pierre repeats the gross error that the Minatogawa kiku-sui is a "stamp". It is not, it is engraved and everyone is thus very slightly different.

 Arnold F.


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#5 seattle1

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:51 PM

Hello:

 Just to add what might not be obvious from the context of question and answer, the genuine Minatogawa swords are true Nihonto in every sense of the term, are rarer than Yasukuni swords for reasons both of less total production at that Shrine and the devastation of Japanese Naval forces for whom they were made. If you have one treasure it and if you haven't acquired Herman Wallinga's monograph on those swords, by all means do.

 Arnold F.


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#6 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 12:28 AM

I would like to re-open this discussion. I've recently seen blades that were appearently gentdaito, but with a large Seki stamp above the smith's name. There are also a few Star-stamped blades with small Seki stamps (mine is on the nakago mune, and another I've seen recently was put on the "date" side of the nakago).

The discussions are evolving to claim that one size Seki is found on gendaito, while the other size stamp is on non-traditionally made showato.

From my observations and reading, I believe the issue is messy because of the history of the stamp. Originally, it was used by the Seki Swordmith guild. It was later hyjacked by the Kokura/Nagoya arsenal inspectors for non-traditionally made blades. So, as I understand it, there are blades out there from both groups. The question remains- is there definitive evidence to indicate one size is from the Guild and the other from IJA arsenals?

My starting hypothesis is: Large Seki stamp - guild stamp; possible gendaito. Small stamp: COMPLICATED - small stamp on "name" side for showato, but anywhere else (like on Star-stamped blade nakago mune or "date" side) for gendaito.

Thoughts/examples guys?

#7 Shamsy

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 04:28 AM

A good question to pose to Nick perhaps?
Steve
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#8 Hamfish

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 04:56 AM

If it holds a seki stamp. It is not a gendai-to. Full stop

If it was a 100% traditional made blade out of tamahagane, it would have never had a seki stamp.

If it was made really well but imported materials were used its lumped in as a seki/showa-to.

Not sure why peaple still trying to discuss there way around IS or ISNT my seki showa to a gendaito in hidding. If its not 100% made in the traditional way its not a gendaito..

You need these rules to exist in every aspect of manufacturing

Example
Is my indian made sports car a Ferrari because it looks like it could be made like a Ferrari
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Hamfish

#9 vajo

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 06:52 AM

I fully agree with hamfish.
A gendaito should be stand for itself. A seki stamped blade could be a fine sword but it is not a true nihonto.
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#10 David Flynn

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:22 AM

WRONG!  Small Seki stamp on the Mune, combined with a Star Stamp,  equals, true Nihonto.


David




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#11 Brian

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:28 AM

I think we need to stop referring to that small nakago version as the usual Seki stamp. It obviously wasn't, and was added for some other purpose yet unknown?


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#12 David Flynn

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:44 AM

Brian, do you mean the ones on the mune?


David




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#13 Hamfish

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 12:51 PM

flynny has has mentioned in the past, the placement of stamps having different meanings. I agree 100%

 

flynny has also mentioned stamp combinations, also having other means. I 90% agree

 

the Ura or Omote stamps are well researched and understood.

 

but these mune or micro stamps meanings aren't truly revealed in there full meaning. making it hard to fully understand

 

Yes david, a star stamped blade was made by a RJT, but why didi they put a seki stamp in the mune??????

 

 

 

but at the end of the day if the seki stamp is on the Ura or Omote  its for a reason, and the Japanese government of the day made it mandatory to mark them for a reason.


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Hamfish

#14 Brian

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:07 PM

Yes, I mean the one on the mune.


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#15 vajo

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:43 PM

With Star Stamp or not judge every sword itself. A Star Stamp indicates a Gendaito when:

1.Company Logo and Date
2. Mei
3. Mei and Date

Are found on Nakago.

Chris S. 

 

 


#16 David Flynn

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:50 PM

What do you mean by company logo?


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David




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#17 vajo

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:56 PM

http://www.militaria...stamped-swords/

Chris S. 

 

 


#18 Stephen

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 10:48 PM

Chris...really 8 years old and two pages, you expect someone to read all that? lol how about a post number as this one is 18


        Stephen C.

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It doesn't matter how slow you go as long as you don't stop.


#19 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:22 PM

I think we need to stop referring to that small nakago version as the usual Seki stamp. It obviously wasn't, and was added for some other purpose yet unknown?

Brian,

 

That IS causing a lot of confusion for many people.  PLUS, there are "small" and "large" Seki stamps that appear on the nakago like this one on a current thread:

 

http://www.militaria...p-on-the-blade/

 

This one is unusual because it is on the "date" side of the nakago



#20 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:29 PM

David is right - most star stamped blades that I have seen also bear a small armory stamp on the nakago mune. These are gendaito. For those that have a Seki stamp are showato. There are levels of non-traditional, but non-traditional is what they are.

#21 David Flynn

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 03:39 AM

The only people I see that have a problem is, the militaria  collectors.    Everything seems to revolve around stamps.   Nihonto collectors (experienced ) know what they are looking for.   Of course it's  harder with a dirty blade,  however, the only stamps we really care about are,  the Star and Tan Stamps.


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David




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#22 vajo

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:18 AM

Stephen the articles of George Trotter are timeless and worth to read. He wrotes all i must know. 😊
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Chris S. 

 

 


#23 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 07:06 AM

Found this Star-stamped blade with a "Kuma" double-stamped on the mune, from a blade owned by Raymondsinger, posted on the Arsenal Stamps thread.

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