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Suriage - Partial Mei Translation Help


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#1 FletchSan

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:48 AM

Just after some help with this partial mei.

 

?

?

住 Ju?

末 Sue or Matsu?

?

 

thanks,

 

Ben

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#2 Bazza

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:06 PM

?

shu (as in province)

住 Ju?  (yes)

末 Sue or Matsu?

?

 

BaZZa.


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#3 FletchSan

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:07 PM

Thanks Bazza. I haven't seen shu written that way before, do you have any other examples where the Kanji is written that way?

 

I wonder if it could be..

 

Seishû 勢州
 
or
Esshû 越州
 
or
Geishû 藝州
 
Geishû looks the closest I think?
 
​Ben

Ben


#4 Bazza

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

Yes, I think Geishû gets the Guernsey.  I didn't look at it closely before as it seemed a real mess of strokes.  Good call Ben.

 

BaZZa.



#5 uwe

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

Saw this writing for "shu" befor. I think on a kabuto, for "Esshû" province....
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#6 Guido Schiller

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

刕 instead of 州 isn't that uncommon, IIRC (and my memory isn't what it used to be anymore :() it's often used in Mino.


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#7 Jean

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:41 PM

Also in Yamashiro for Washu

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Soshin Gimei

#8 FletchSan

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:28 AM

Thanks. I can't find any smiths so far signing Geishû ju sue?  (藝刕住末?) so far in my search.

 

​The sword appears to be koto based on the usual kantei.

I guess it could be gimei though would have thought a suriage nakago with a cut off signature that doesn't represent any well known smiths may be at odds with gimei?

 

cheers,

 

Ben


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#9 uwe

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:03 PM

If the following character (cut off) belongs to it, this kanji might have had a diffrent pronunciation....


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#10 John A Stuart

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:17 PM

I thought it might be the first kanji for a different wau of saying Fuchu a town in Aki (Geishu) and of the Takahachi bunch, but, not feeling good about it. John



#11 FletchSan

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:24 AM

Interesting - what would that Kanji be John for Fuchu?


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#12 John A Stuart

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:15 AM

The town is, 府中 whereas the kanji 末​ is also 'Fu". That is why I don't credit it. There were not too many large towns in Aki at that time which would have supported a smith. John


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#13 FletchSan

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:11 AM

The connoisseurs book of Japanese swords also mentions that there were no important smiths active in the Aki province during Koto times and it was not until 1600 when Teruhiro started producing swords there in Hiroshima.

So perhaps the sword is just not by a well know smith or is later than I had thought and possibly early shinto - or the mei is not original to the sword and throwing me off..

Ben


#14 FletchSan

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:07 AM

Is Fujiwara or Fuyuhiro ever written using the Kanji 末 for Fu?

Ben


#15 Guido Schiller

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

Is Fujiwara or Fuyuhiro ever written using the Kanji 末 for Fu?

 

Theoretically it's possible, but highly unlikekly. Usually it's Fujii-Wara 藤原 and Fuyu-Hiro 冬広 (i.e. fuji and fuyu, not only fu and then something + something)



#16 FletchSan

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:20 PM

Thanks Guido. Makes sense. Just trying to understand this sword a little better and following John's suggestion that it might not be Sue but could be Fu and if Aki province then possibly Teruhiro school that's why a light bulb went off with Fujiwara or Fuyuhiro. A few other Kantei points match Teruhiro school from what I've researched so far in that it has a fairly bold mokume hada and suguha hamon. Understand the mei may just be a red herring though.

Ben





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