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Tsuba Question About Iron


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#1 johnnyi

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:44 PM

I'm torn between even posting this or not because I've been told it is "ugly" but here goes anyway...  I'm curious if it is some newer piece , revival maybe, or actual Edo period, or something else.      Its large (81.3 x 82.2 x 5 mm)and heavy, iron rings like a bell, and though the pictures might be deceptive, it is not at all rust covered, but is molten with a dark brown patina. I cannot see  definite folding, but possible.  Is this style of a particular school or period?  Thank you in advance for your help.  regards,    johnnyi

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#2 Stephen

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:50 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, i find it quite nice, like the two fans.  


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#3 Rich S

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:58 PM

Don't know the school; maybe Ko-Katchushi or Tosho?  I really like the design and patina. Nice tsuba.

 

Rich


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#4 ROKUJURO

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:15 AM

Johnny,

the TSUBA is probably not so old; I  don't think KO-TOSHO or KO-KACHUSHI, as these are usually very thin. Did your really measure 9,8 mm thickness? That would be quite extreme! The surface reminds me of several classic TSUBA schools but I think this might be a (well made) revival piece. 


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Regards,

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#5 Kurikata

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:36 AM

Johnny,

 

your tsuba is quite nice from my perspective and I agree not as old as Ko Tosho or Ko Kachushi. But I am tempted by a Myochin or saotome influence. I have a similar one ....(http://www.militaria...design-the-age/)


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#6 johnnyi

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:45 AM

Actually in the evening light (bed lamp) there is clear evidence of folding on the corner interior of one of the fans, but it is not the kind of single or double fold you're more used to. . It is a series of layers (seem to be eight in all) similar to what I think Evan described on another tsuba as "spool of thread". Does 8 layers of metal mean folded 3 times??



#7 Thierry BERNARD

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:46 AM

Myochin
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#8 Greg F

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:01 AM

Simple but nice Tsuba.

Greg
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#9 johnnyi

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:02 AM

Thank you all. This is a huge help!  You guys sure know your stuff.      Regards, John       



#10 rkg

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:09 AM

Johnny,

 

This is kind of a popular theme - could be saotome, though Thierry's comment about it being Myochin would probably be the best guess - Saotome work often had those ridges around the sukashi that were a byproduct of how they cut the sukashi.  Here's a similar piece I have that was attributed to early saotome work by Torigoye that shows this:

https://www.facebook...065621873493160

spinny_pics, er, uh, 360 degree view - Note that this was before I spent 5 minutes rubbing it with a cloth - that gunk is gone now (it looked like somebody had recently mounted it/used it for iai or something):
 

http://www.rkgphotos...e_torigoye.html

 

http://www.rkgphotos...igoye_back.html

 

 

Best,

rkg


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#11 johnnyi

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:27 AM

rkg, Thank you, and that is interesting about the marks made by sawing (?) the sukashi. Unfortunately I can't get a clean shot under tonight's light, but I saw the same 8 ridges on the the sukashi wall of a probably mid-to late Edo Yamakichibe "knock off".  After Thierry's clue as to Myochin, I found by googling a very similar one which seems to share the same exact same  arc of the fans, and appears to have the same thickness.  regards, John



#12 MauroP

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:39 AM

Johnny, I'm quite doubtful about your measures of tsuba thickness. If diameter is reported correctly the thickness (estimated from pics) should be just 5 mm or so.
Mauro
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#13 johnnyi

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:47 AM

Mauro, I'm mortiffied. Yes, my calipers were not set on zero. You are absolutely right, 5 mm on the button. A simple tsuba for a  simple mind :laughing:   Thank you! John



#14 Toryu

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:55 AM

Johnny
Very nice tsuba - not Myochin imo - but Yamakichibei

google up the work of Naruki Issei...
-t
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#15 Toryu

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 02:14 AM

成木一成
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#16 johnnyi

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 03:09 AM

Thomas, this is enlightening  information, regardless of who might have made this particular tsuba. I assume that your reference to Naruki issei was kind of a "...for example" rather than a possibility?  To  learn a little about  such an artist now, one so completely dedicated, and  who lived  a spartan and solitary  life adds such depth to "new" and I can imagine why they are so sought after. I've read they are deeply signed, so as not to be sold as genuine?    Thank you,  John



#17 Toryu

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:03 AM

he specialized in this molten finish - many copied it
should it turn out to be modern it would be no loss, this to me has the look of a skilled artisan like Naruki...
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#18 Brian

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:59 AM

Well...the one thing you didn't get is that it is "ugly" :)
Who on earth said that? All positive comments, and I agree with them. It has a nice finish, and is a nice looking piece. You have great comments from people who know more than me here..but don't be scared to post something here. Whether good or bad, no-one will criticise you for posting anything.
Lots of research to do here....good comments from the people helping and even Mauro analyzing thickness vs diameter possibilities :glee:
Good to see.


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#19 Dr Fox

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:29 PM

'Ugly" such a subjective word.

 

The blade edge of the most expensive sword in the world, could be 'ugly',

But that of course,

depends on which side of the blade you are standing!


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#20 ROKUJURO

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 03:05 PM

..... It is a series of layers (seem to be eight in all) similar to....another tsuba as "spool of thread". Does 8 layers of metal mean folded 3 times??

No, Johnny,

the number of layers has not directly to do with the number of folds. You can start your work with a 10 layer package. When you fold it, you get 20 layers with one fold!
A lot depends on why you make foldings. If you want to homogenize the steel, you just use the raw material and fold it. Contrasting patterns are obtained by using different steel alloys, and these are then used in form of sheet metal. 

Sometimes you fold a number of layers and forge-weld them perfectly to a homogenous block so you don't even see layers in the cuts!

In forging, there are not many secrets left.....


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Regards,

Jean C.




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