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#1 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:35 AM

Hello,

I'd like to ask whether this mei says Hizen Kuni Tadayoshi

And whether by the signature it could be established which generation.

Thank you in advance
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#2 Katsujinken

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:43 AM

I believe that is what it says (肥前國忠吉).

I'll let the experts weigh in on the rest of your query.
Michael

#3 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:53 AM

I believe that is what it says (肥前國忠吉).

I'll let the experts weigh in on the rest of your query.

Much appreciated. I think it is shodai but I need clarification if possible


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#4 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:39 AM

Lots of examples online of Tasdayoshi and I encourage you to take a look - which I'm sure you already have. That said, the mei doesn't immediately scream gimei. There are folks here that study exclusively hizento and can provide some true expertise.

Joe

 

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#5 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:44 AM

Lots of examples online of Tasdayoshi and I encourage you to take a look - which I'm sure you already have. That said, the mei doesn't immediately scream gimei. There are folks here that study exclusively hizento and can provide some true expertise.

 

Thank you. I know one thing for certain - the blade gives me confidence to think about shodai as the konuka hada is extremely easy to make out. 


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#6 Jim P

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:42 AM

Hi, Posted the right way up for you, IMHO, looks like a chance for shodai but needs to be sent for shinsa to say 100% also konuka hada just tells you Hizen school but not much more  :)

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#7 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:40 AM

Hi, Posted the right way up for you, IMHO, looks like a chance for shodai but needs to be sent for shinsa to say 100% also konuka hada just tells you Hizen school but not much more  :)

 

Thank you very much. I have been reading Markus Sesko and he actually has Shodai Tadayoshi picture there (in reference to the konuka hada) which looks the same on my blade. Thanks again


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#8 paulb

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 10:06 AM

Hizen jigane, (Konuka hada) really stabalised into it's standard form with the second generation Omi Daijo Tadahiro. So in this case it may be indicating a later generation. . the mei of the Shodai and Sandai are very similar.look at the direction of the yasurimei which could tell you a lot I can never remember which way round it is without referring back to books but a telling difference is that one use kate-sagari Yauri and the other kate-agari

I think if genuine yours may be Sandai rather than Shodai which would be an equally good result. His own signed work is rare and his quality equal to his grand fathers.


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#9 Bazza

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 10:33 AM

Certainly not Mutsu

 

BaZZa.


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#10 paulb

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 10:57 AM

HiBarry

So do you think it is shodai? I was leaning towards sandai based onthe combination of konuka hada and yasurimei but havent compared the mei and memory is a bad tool to use for making a judgement.

What eliminates him?



#11 Bazza

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 12:19 PM

G'day Paul,

 

From what I know of Mutsu the file marks should be slightly up (agari) rather than down (sagari).  As for the mei itself I would need to study it at length and even then one should have the sword in hand, remembering that:

 

The blade confirms the mei, not the other way around.

 

Having said that, I'm quite sure that the mei is that of a Hizento (look at the -ZEN kanji), but which one is the tough bit.  No easy answers as for the Hizen school this is tricky at the best of times, remembering also that IMHO the Japanese were better at their own fakes than we are at sorting them out, given that some "fakes" are student's work with the approval of the Master.  Remembering also that Omi Daijo had at one time 100 people working in his studio.  What do we really know with our books...

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.


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#12 paulb

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 12:51 PM

thanks Barry

Yes I understand and agree with your view. I always confuse myself with agari and sagari. After spending most of my formative years studying Hizen blades i am glad I moved backwards to Yamashiro and enju (fewer smiths to worry about and lots of mumei :) )



#13 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 01:42 PM

Thank you for taking the time. The blade was published, the paper was lost.

Published: Japan Sword Preservation Society, ed., Token to reikishi. no. 646, May, 2002, pg. 34
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#14 raymondsinger

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 01:51 PM

If the blade was published then your answer is there. Contact individuals from one of the two current NTHK organizations and see if either can help locate a copy. I suggest Chris Bowen and/or Gordon Robson.

BTW, if the sword was published in the NTHK's journal then the kanteisho would also have been from the NTHK.

Ray


Thank you for taking the time. The blade was published, the paper was lost.
Published: Japan Sword Preservation Society, ed., Token to reikishi. no. 646, May, 2002, pg. 34


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#15 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 01:57 PM

If the blade was published then your answer is there. Contact individuals from one of the two current NTHK organizations and see if either can help locate a copy. I suggest Chris Bowen and/or Gordon Robson.
Ray

Thank you. Wanted to run it by you either way. I didn't know a certificate could be reissued. Thanks again, I think this is a 'good one'.
YuLiAn4o :steamed:

#16 raymondsinger

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:20 PM

I was referring to locating that page from the journal, which should specify the generation. Please share your findings here after a copy is located.

Ray Singer

 

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#17 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:42 PM

I guess someone tried to sell it before I got it. This is the blade. Not sure if this is reliable site as I just found it and the kanteisho paper is gone as we already established. My guess is - this is an unusual piece and very very rare. And that price suggested.. is that within ballpark???



https://www.bonhams....20503/lot/1186/
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#18 Jean

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:24 PM

1st - Provenance, unless sustained by papers is worthless.
2nd - Estimation: it depends on the market, IMHO, exagerated. Here is a sunobi tanto by shodai Yasutsugu, same time, same rating, very fine horimono:

- https://www.aoijapan...ation-yasutsugu
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#19 Greg F

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

It amazes me that someone couldve lost the papers to such a valuable and nice blade!

Greg

#20 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 05:04 PM

1st - Provenance, unless sustained by papers is worthless.
2nd - Estimation: it depends on the market, IMHO, exagerated. Here is a sunobi tanto by shodai Yasutsugu, same time, same rating, very fine horimono:

- https://www.aoijapan...ation-yasutsugu

 

 I am just collecting opinions from you guys. From what I see, his works are very very rare and a Naginata sold for a big number from what I understand. Thank you.


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#21 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 05:05 PM

It amazes me that someone couldve lost the papers to such a valuable and nice blade!

Greg

 

No kidding. I hope I could get the NTHK Kanterisho reissued otherwise I don't know if I'd ever consider shipping this to Japan... No way as of now, I'd rather not have the Juyo but have it safe right here in front of my eyes..


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#22 Jean

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:33 PM

"From what I see his works are very very rare"

Sorry to disappoint you but do no believe auction houses. He scores at least 96 juyo swords :) He died at the age of 61, so many of his swords have survived
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#23 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:46 PM

"From what I see his works are very very rare"

Sorry to disappoint you but do no believe auction houses. He scores at least 96 juyo swords :) He died at the age of 61, so many of his swords have survived

 

I am not disappointed by any means Jean plus I am happy to hear that many of his works are still around (and that many have reached the status) as that would make it easier to identify since NTHK is not the usual choice of collectors (from what I read). As you may saw, I questioned the website and that is why I am asking you guys. To me this is a good starting item for my small collection and with all of your help (and the Internet) I have been able to establish what it is at least. Value, is my next point of interest. Thank you!


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#24 Jean

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:55 PM

He is a very good smith :)
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#25 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 07:00 PM

He is a very good smith :)

 

I have to say Thanks to all of you one more time. I find it unnecessary to be taking photos as professional ones can still be seen online.

 

However, since I am doing nothing but getting more confused while reading about different era and schools I have others to continue to do research on and hopefully you'd help out whenever you have time. Would it be okay if I ask about another one that has been of a great interest?

 

I know the mei is Jumyo - the questions I can't answer are - 

 

1) Nakago appears shinto (no chance for sue koto?) - am I wrong?

2) In what tier is horimono (low mid high grade)?

 

 

I see one of the members and highly respected seller has Jumyo on his website at 20k so I wonder whether this has similar standing. Thank you in advance


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#26 Jim P

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 07:45 PM

Hi BaZZa,Why thought a chance for shodai was this blade from the  45th-NBTHK Juyo Touken pic,  from Touken Komachi,it was on there site last year take a look at the tada on the two :)

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  • Tadayoshi(1st)J.jpg
  • post-3789-0-12129100-1488591328.jpg

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#27 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:04 PM

Hi BaZZa,Why thought a chance for shodai was this blade from the  45th-NBTHK Juyo Touken pic,  from Touken Komachi,it was on there site last year take a look at the tada on the two :)

 

Although I am in no position to suggest an opinion but these two signatures have nothing in common.


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#28 Jim P

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 05:31 AM

Green Dragon, Yu Li An Cho ? your first name Yu Li ? The NBTHK and NTHK thought that they are by the same hand and I was pointing out that the tada kanji is very close as it is a point in working out which Tadayoshi for an example, Art and the Sword - Volume 1 1988 has a article on shodai Tadayoshi's way of cutting tada but it is different to what we see in yours. It is a mine field to work out and there are always exceptions and as BaZZa said No easy answers for the Hizen school :laughing: 

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#29 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:19 AM

Hello

I am very thankful the provided information.... That is my Chinese name (lol) But on what page is the shodai ??


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#30 DaViebaPutkataMamina

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:49 AM

Hello

I am very thankful the provided information. Now that is a bad news :) ... But on what page is the shodai ??

 

In my eyes the horizontal line has not been hammered as shown in your photo - while the direction appears the same 


YuLiAn4o :steamed:




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