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Minamoto Yoshichika Saku Kore Nidai


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#1 Jul

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:07 PM

Hello

 

I take the opportunity of the bug that cancelled my previous thread to re-post in this section, seems more appropriate to me at the moment, since i have been lacking knowledge about the kikusui-to, so i am here to gather informations.

 

20170203_142415_zpsbxirltny.jpg20170203_143740_zpspalqmuhb.jpg20161022_152358_zpsqdhf6lk2.jpg20161022_150813_zpsbbxuaqgz.jpg20161022_150851_zps7i7rkivx.jpg20161022_150759_zps2p69iwga.jpg

 

 

https://www.aoijapan...hika-saku-kore/

 

I have been in contact with mr Tsuruta, who send me this link but the translation is not clear to me especially the part " chrysanthemum swords", so could someone please give me the main idea about this chapter?

http://ohmura-study.net/732.html

 

So now, i am trying to figure if the kikusui-to is one from the Minatogawa jinja produced sword during showa, or one like these mentioned in this thread :

 

http://www.militaria...09-kikusui-mon/

 

Can someone please confirm whether or not the nidai Minamoto Yoshichika worked at the Minatogawa jinja?

 

 

Do you remember the first time you've entered through the nihonto's world door? That's where i am, so please forgive my ignorance, and the lot of question i have.

If you have any information to add about the sword the smith etc.. i'll be glad to hear it, thanks.

Julien.


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#2 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:14 PM

Nice lookingbsword Julien! Good luck with the sale.

Edit to add: No Yoshichika has no affiliation with the Minatogawa jinja. He was a well respected smith and well regarded by army officers.

#3 Jul

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:19 PM

Thanks Joe i feel better now knowing than expecting.


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#4 David Flynn

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 03:02 AM

Swordsmiths/ owners could have their swords blessed by a Shrine. One could then (if wanted) could inscibe the kikusuie mon.  The owner may have been in the Navy. I have seen other non-minatagawa swords with this mon. One that comes imediately to mind, was a Seki 23rd Gen.  Kanefusa.  I believe (could be wrong) there was a Gassan Sadakatsu with this mon.   However,  Yoshichika was not a registered Minatagawa Swordsmith.


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#5 Jul

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 03:11 AM

Thanks for your input David, i really appreciate that "background precision" of the history of this blade, it makes me even more curious.
BTW, as you mention the navy, is there a particular type of koshirae that could be related to, or suits this blade?
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#6 David Flynn

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 05:21 AM

Kaigunto. Probably special order made.


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#7 Jul

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 04:12 PM

You're the man!
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#8 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 05:04 PM

It's impossible to tell what kind of mounts this sword should have. It is true that the minatogawa jinja smith's (usually starting with "Masa") produced largely for the navy and the fact that many navy swords were lost to ships/subs going down, they are relatively rare and expensive vs. their army counterparts. That said, as we discussed Yoshichika is not affiliated with the jinja, so assuming this is navy due to the mon, is a false assumption. Also, since Yoshichika is noted as being highly favored by Army officers and the relative rarity of navy swords, if an assumption would be made, its more fair to assume that it would be shingunto vs. kaigunto.
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#9 Jul

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 06:22 PM

That's a good point Joe.
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#10 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 07:56 PM

No sweat. Regardless of the original mounts, this is an excellent sword. A nice addition and if one of your first, you're on a good path!

#11 Jul

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 08:17 PM

Yes i really miss the mounts, and it seems that finding koshirae to match is impossible,especially for the saya...
Thanks for your encouragements!
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#12 David Flynn

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 01:31 AM

I was only folowing logigical steps using the Kikusui mon.  I have not seen one on an army mounted sword, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't been done.  Anyway, now that is all hypothetical.  Also, it was his dad who was favoured by the army.


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#13 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:14 AM

In case you didn't find this yet:
https://www.japanese...om/yoshchik.htm
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#14 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 11:48 AM

Considering the Kikusui on the blade and habaki it's more likely to have kai gunto mounts than army ones. Like today, Navy and Army are fiercely independent branches, even more so in Showa Japan, to the detriment of the war effort in fact.

 

It's entirely possible it had army mounts originally, but personally I would assume it was in kai gunto mounts simply due to how staunch the Army/Navy rivalry was then.

 

In any case finding replacement army mounts would be a bit of a wild goose chase, I naively tried once and the sword is still in shirasaya......


John


#15 Jul

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:58 PM

In case you didn't find this yet:
https://www.japanese...om/yoshchik.htm

I've been there already thanks, the site is a goldmine. 

 

Obviously, it is quite hard to determine what kind of koshirae would be the most appropriate, as the kikusui-to is more "navy-like", but in the other hand,  the nidai Minamoto Yoshichika are mostly mounted in shin gunto, for the few pictures i have been able to find.

You both argued very interestingly, and i have to say it's thrilling to do this search and having your point of view. 

 

 

In any case finding replacement army mounts would be a bit of a wild goose chase, I naively tried once and the sword is still in shirasaya......

 

I'll guess it will end up like that for me too, but it's really too bad...


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#16 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 07:46 AM

Julien I'm not sure what options are available in France, perhaps some other members can recommend someone, but if there's a good koshirae maker you may be able to get some army mounts refitted to your blade. It won't be cheap, as you'll have to purchase separate mounts which aren't getting any cheaper these days, but it may be your best option if you really want it back in wartime condition.


John


#17 Dave R

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 11:22 AM

 I am surprised you have a problem over mounts. Ebay has full sets for sale as well as individual parts, and if you buy from Japan they are pretty well guaranteed to be original. Fitting can be an issue, but here the build quality of most Shin-Gunto is on your side. Most, though  not all, Shin-Gunto are a lot simpler to alter than Buke Zukuri. 

Alternatively, buy a full set on a tsunagi and display it alongside your Shirasaya. This was my original intention, and then I found the mounts fitted my blade better than did many sold as complete original Shin-Gunto.


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#18 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

 I am surprised you have a problem over mounts. Ebay has full sets for sale as well as individual parts, and if you buy from Japan they are pretty well guaranteed to be original. Fitting can be an issue, but here the build quality of most Shin-Gunto is on your side. Most, though  not all, Shin-Gunto are a lot simpler to alter than Buke Zukuri. 

Alternatively, buy a full set on a tsunagi and display it alongside your Shirasaya. This was my original intention, and then I found the mounts fitted my blade better than did many sold as complete original Shin-Gunto.

You are a luckier man than I am, Dave!


John


#19 Jul

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

In fact, i was more concerned about fitting than finding the koshirae but thanks to your advices, it might not be as difficult as i tought.

What about fitting a koshirae from a tsunagi made from the blade? Is it something that can be done?


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#20 Dave R

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:42 AM

You are a luckier man than I am, Dave!

 A one in a million chance I know, and a bit weird to tell the truth.


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