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Antique Japanese Sword Shop Kanetoyo


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#1 md02geist

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 07:45 AM

A horrible experience with him.

 

I arranged a deal with Kanetoyo for a Naminohira Tachi. We arranged this several weeks ago. We agreed on a price and I told him I would send him 1000 as a deposit and await better pictures (because TBH his pictures were horrible).

 

He agreed.

 

He sent me better pictures and I told him it looked great and I would be sending the remainder of the money asap (and got distracted with real life stuff). About 230am that same night (my time, I'm totally asleep most nights at 230am as I have a JOB that starts early...) he sent me a message "Do you buy or not? I can cancel."

 

He then cancelled the sale, refunded my deposit, and I woke up to that.

 

I then told him yes I would buy, and resent the deposit per his instructions and told him I would send the remainder of the money asap if he understood the terms of our agreement completely (the price, what I expected, that it was to be as represented or a return could be made) and was comfortable.

 

He said this was fine and he agreed/understood, so I sent the rest of the money and gave him my PO box to ship to because it's far more secure and will be easier for me to get ahold of the blade than my home (which I would likely miss delivery of). Not to mention it keeps some mail person from schlepping it around and possibly damaging it further.

 

AGAIN around 230-3am my time he sends me a message "I am not confident with this sale" etc etc because he states he can only send to paypal address that is the primary on the account.

 

He states that an "American charged back" against him several times. He also told me the sword had been returned once "by an American who stole koshirae."

(more on that later).

 

He also tries to sell me on TWO different swords including one I am sure is not his own sword (it had MARVELOUS pictures compared to the rest of what he sent me). He repeatedly tries to convince me not to buy this tachi. At this point I'm getting suspicious that he's agreed to sell it to someone else at a higher price.

 

I wake up AGAIN to see my money refunded except this time paypal is holding it for a week, and they've flagged my account as suspicious because there have now been several large transactions bounced back and forth from the same person.

 

I tell him it's FINE to send it to my home if that's what he wants to do but I tell him I'll need to wait for paypal to return the money so I can pay him again.

He says this is cool "I have been thinking over this transaction and it is okay" or similar.

 

I waited until *this evening* when the money was finally refunded, and told him I was ready to send it. He said he would send invoice. He then sent me a goofy video of the sword claiming it had a "very loose habaki" in which he took the sword and shifted it up and down in the handle of the shirasaya; it's clear the mekugi was not installed but he tried to claim he "didn't know why is broken" and "could not repair."

 

I verified that we had an agreement on all the terms and he said that I would NOT be able to return if it was not as represented.

This is in direct violation of what he told me earlier.

 

He says "I never accept returns."

Also in direct violation of his earlier statement of an "American" returning the sword and "stealing koshirae."

 

He then continues on with "Furthermore, negotiations of the return goods are tiring. I not want deal with you. Next time."

 

He's now discontinued any communication with me and blocked me from messaging him further.


So to summarize:

-Agreed on price for blade

 

-Cancelled my deposit without warning, for no reason

 

-Re-accepted my money, but then tried to sell me on 2 different blades in the meantime

 

-Cancelled my purchase AGAIN and returned money without warning, causing a week hold on funds from paypal and flagging my account

 

-Accepted my money a THIRD time after I waited for the funds to clear paypal refund, and then on the evening of the deal cancelled the deal a *third* time, now blocking me from further messaging because he now didn't stand behind his product and said he "never took refunds" even though he claimed earlier in our conversation the "sword was returned once by American who steal koshirae."

 

-Has now blocked me from commenting, reviewing, or messaging his Facebook page.

 

 

I have *never* been treated this unprofessionally in my life and the fact that he tried to sell me on several other blades, tried very hard, and then refunded and cancelled the sale on three separate occasions tells me he probably just sold it to someone else for more than I was paying and wanted to maximize his own profit.

 

So be advised; if you recently purchased this blade from him, this is what went down regarding it. Sad to see this guy act like a scumbag after I read some good reviews of him here and on FB.


Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#2 Gunome

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:06 AM

Never deal with him, and never heard good or negative feedback on him.

However, if I were you, as the seller seem to do not have a good behaviour, I would pass and not insist to buy this sword.


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#3 tom

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:31 AM

Hi Rob,

i have at the moment the same problem with a guy on Facebook. He write bad thinks about me in a Nihonto group on Facebook. But a deal has always 2 sides. I was 2 Days in these group, after i get delete from these group. No chance of a replay to answer, he is the administrator and blocked me to. I can tell you only one thing, if there is a problem, and it is not to clear of the normal way, take a lawyer. Thats that what i do now to clear that problem.  I hade a one side fight when you get blocked to answer.

 

 

Tom



#4 Brian

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:46 AM

He's a dealer in Japan, and a member here. Some people have had good dealings with him, some not. Just like many sellers. A lot of stuff out of Japan is stuff that doesn't easily sell there...so expect eBay to be a dumping ground of excess Japanese stock. As is a lot of the stuff marketed to the West.
Tom, you have a history going back many years with him, and both of you have some controversy around you from way back, so probably best to stay out of this one.
Rob, sounds like you got out of a deal you wouldn't have been happy in anyways, so no loss there. Every seller has his detractors and his fans...some just have far more of one or the other, and that allows people to decide who they want to deal with. That's why this forum leaves stuff like this up as a reference, but when searching you will find many happy customers of various sellers too. So pays to do your homework folks.


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#5 tom

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 12:05 PM

Brain, by online Deal it gives sometimes problems, thats normaly. But it is always to clear of the normal way, if not i take a lawyer, before i write some thinks about any other Person online in a forum.

 

Many people buy by Japanese dealers, and i know that a few collectors had problem with the Blades after receive them. They write now in the description only is a consignment and sale is final, so no return. Thats the risk if you buy online. But i like it more if the client comes and hold the blade in hand, that you have later no problems as by online deals.

 

 

Tom



#6 md02geist

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 01:20 PM

Never deal with him, and never heard good or negative feedback on him.
However, if I were you, as the seller seem to do not have a good behaviour, I would pass and not insist to buy this sword.



Oh I'm not trust me. I won't deal with him again.

Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#7 Jim P

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 01:28 PM

Hi Rob, Brian has the best advice, do your homework folks :clap:  Rob if you look on the board you will find posts on him. He's a dealer that I would  Never deal with again and am not surprised that you are having problems but in the end you are better off with your $ :phew: And you are lot better off spending your time looking on the board :)


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#8 md02geist

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 02:16 PM

Hi Rob, Brian has the best advice, do your homework folks :clap:  Rob if you look on the board you will find posts on him. He's a dealer that I would  Never deal with again and am not surprised that you are having problems but in the end you are better off with your $ :phew: And you are lot better off spending your time looking on the board :)

 

Thanks Jim. I did some homework on him and found good reviews including by some NMB board members but maybe I should have dug deeper.

 

Very frustrating to have dealt with all this shady back and forth BS over a blade I was pretty excited about.


Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#9 Brian

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 02:31 PM

Tom,

You throw the word "lawyer" around far too much.
It doesn't instill any faith in buyers. Working things out with a buyer/seller is far easier and more pleasant than throwing around lawyer threats.


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#10 Guido Schiller

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 02:38 PM

But it is always to clear of the normal way, if not i take a lawyer, before i write some thinks about any other Person online in a forum.

 

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

 

http://www.militaria...tom/#entry24432



#11 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 06:00 PM

His name is Hiroshi Nakamura, & I had bought several items from him with no problem, or drama. Seemed to be very straightforward, & answered all my questions. Then, in early 2014, something changed, & he got argumentative with my sword mentor, & then with me. Not sure what's going on with him, but I no longer deal with Kanetoyo.

 

Ken

 


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#12 tom

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 07:04 PM

Mr. Schiller,

the problem what John in i had before is out of the world. We have clear all.

 

Tom



#13 Red Sun

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 08:27 PM

Hopefully Rob this is one of those cases when you eventually find a Naminohira which makes you glad the other deals fell through.

 

I have a Waki with old papers that state it is a Naminohira - I have some doubts that is correct but either way it is one of my favourite blades with really large and obvious Nie.

 

This one sold last night - I am a little surprised that the price did not go higher =

http://www.ebay.co.u...cvip=true&rt=nc

 

They are interesting blades - shame you got messed about - good luck with the hunt.


Red

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#14 md02geist

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 10:01 PM

I actually bid on that one. But eBay didn't take my final bid properly. The mobile app is a bit faulty and I didn't have access to the computer at the times

It's kinda marginal condition but nice koshirae.

Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#15 Red Sun

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 11:24 PM

Thats a shame- didnt mean to rub salt in the wounds!

 

Agreed the hada looked a little coarse in a couple of places but still very good for that price.

I was going to bid for it myself before something else caught my eye.

 

Thanks for heads up in OP as I was following that seller.


Red

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#16 md02geist

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 12:16 AM

It's ok it happens. I think for the work it needed the buyer got it for a pretty solid price. Not like groundbreaking amazing, but not bad either. Just my guess of course.

Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#17 kiku

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:09 AM

I know Tom since many years and I bought some items from him. We made nice business every time. He offers fair prices and very item I bought were delivered fast. Some other collectors that I know have also just good experience with him. 

 

I dont understand this trouble. Everybody can decide on his own where he buys his items and please try to sent back a sword that you have bought in Japan- NO chance, sale is final or that are consignments.


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#18 Thierry BERNARD

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 11:24 AM

I dont understand this trouble. .....

 

Different people, different experiences, it's life!


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Thierry BERNARD

Art for art's sake makes no more sense than gin for gin's sake. - W. Somerset Maugham


#19 kiku

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 12:18 PM

You are right!
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#20 md02geist

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 01:22 PM

If you think the no return policy that was changed on me last second and lied about was the only problem here you definitely don't understand the situation and I'd suggest you read it a few more times.
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Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#21 Gakusee

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 04:14 PM

The reality is dealers try to maximise their profits and sometimes some of the Japanese ones pull out if they perceive the deal as 'not final' and someone offered a higher price. In the OP's case it was absurd that a deposit was paid and the dealer reneagued.
I have bought from a well known Japanese dealer (and had a good experience) who is not Kanetoyo but then, on a couple of occasions, as I was finalising the price with the very same dealer and agreeing the deposit, the blades mysteriously disappeared. In one case the seller felt remorse apparently. In another, I was outbid, but then I agreed the price and the blade was to be sold to me but I had to pay immediately, then the blade was sold to someone else when I said I needed to pay in combination of bank transfer and other means.

As someone mentioned above - every cloud has a silver lining and hopefully the OP will find a better deal.
Michael
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#22 md02geist

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 05:27 PM

Not only was the deposit returned, but after I resent the ENTIRE amount he returned it. He cancelled the deal a total of three times.

It was definitely maximizing profit.

Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#23 Jim P

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 06:38 AM

Rob, Nakamura lists items on more than one site at a time in my case he had 3 Auctions going, one in UK one on his site and an Auction in Japan all at different prices so you can be cut out if he get a better price also he has some interesting ideas on what a Sayagaki is he does them himself :o  and you are lucky, I got No refund consignment sale but I had him offer to buy the blade back for 250,000Y less than what I paid  all before he sent it because EMS would not send it :-?  and after a lot of emails I finally got it with the tsuba swapped out for a lower value one and just to finish off he took the shitodome :steamed:  I would be happy for him to explain his practices as he is on the board 

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#24 bobtail44

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:54 PM

I won an auction on one of his blades a while ago and he straight out said that he sold it off of eBay for a higher price. He then tried to sell me some other piece of junk for the same high price. No business ethics what so ever. He doesn't care. I reported him, but evidently eBay doesn't care either.

 

Trent


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#25 md02geist

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 01:46 PM

Sounds as if I got lucky with not actually doing the deal with him...thank you all for your input. Good to know it wasn't just me.


Rob W.

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#26 Curran

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 04:25 PM

He has been around since at least 2002.

Echos.

Upon echos.


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#27 md02geist

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 07:21 PM

He has been around since at least 2002.

Echos.

Upon echos.

 

 

Meaning what, exactly? That people have been saying the same thing about him since then? I don't catch your meaning.


Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."


#28 Brian

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 07:27 PM

Let's wrap it up folks, unless there is new info. I think the point was made, every seller has bad deals and good deals. Do all your homework and research sellers wherever you can.


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#29 Jean

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 11:06 PM

Members,

Please, it is not so difficult to do its homework. First, look at the number of swords offered for sale, look at the blades turnover, look at the feedback, the quality of the goods for sale... Easy to make an opinion. If not, you can contact members living in Japan about the seller...
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#30 md02geist

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 11:45 PM

I did homework. He had many good reviews including from NMB members.
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Rob W.

"Little bird if you do not sing for me, I will wait for you to."





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